Derek Watson interview: Making your complex simple through design

Derek is the founder and Creative Director of CanalPath Creative, a Chartered Graphic Designer with over 30 years of experience and is an expert in using design to communicate complex ideas and processes.

Derek’s links:

CanalPath Creative website
LinkedIn

Watch the video here, or read the transcript below if you prefer.

Transcript:

Samantha Tonge: Hi, this is Samantha Tonge, Labrakita Marketing again. I am here with Derek Watson. It's another one of my interviews where we talk about specific areas of marketing or something related to marketing. I'm going to be speaking to Derek about... well, making your complex simple, which is also my tagline. So, we will be talking about, specifically in this situation, design, and how you use that to put complex messages across in a simple way, I guess. So Derek, would you like to introduce yourself?

Derek Watson: Hi everyone, I'm Derek Watson. I started working on my own three years ago as Canal Path Creative Ltd., following numerous companies and from either working for other people or setting up on my own, and just being more in control and doing everything myself.

Samantha: Yeah, it's so liberating, isn't it? Going out on your own.

Derek: Yeah. It's scary because you have to do everything yourself. You know, you have to go out and find the work. Although, luckily, virtually all my work comes to me. But you still have to do all the networking.

Samantha: Yes.

Derek: Which is fun most of the time. I think there’s a lot of social aspects to it, rather than everybody being overly serious and business-focused, especially over the last year.

Samantha: Yeah.

Derek: It's been good.

Samantha: Yeah, yeah. So anyone who's maybe watching in the future, we're just kind of coming towards hopefully the end of a pandemic. Everything crossed. So, just like me, you've got quite a lot of clients who have quite a complex message, don't you?

Derek: Yes, that's right. Especially from my previous company, most of the work we did there was with IT companies, software companies. Therefore, a lot of the work we did was around IT service management, change management, etc. So quite complex processes, etc, to get across to staff. It is especially difficult to communicate to those that are in the organisation, but don’t work in IT. They often don't know all the vocabulary.

Samantha: Yes, yes. I think a lot of industries are quite guilty of using their own terminology rather than the customer terminology. I'm guessing that you find the same?

Derek: Yes, it's even just saying that you can't use these acronyms all the time. You have to explain these, because the people in accounts will have no idea what you're talking about, people in marketing will have no idea what you're talking about. I find that quite often the IT departments are seen as almost a separate company. So, in those cases, a lot of the time it's getting the connection between IT and the rest of the business.

Samantha: Yeah, yeah. And even if your target market is a bit more technical, even if you're aiming at the IT professionals, you still need to get their attention and get that message across very quickly.

Derek: Yes, that's true. Just getting the right amount of detail is quite critical. And you must find that as well with your copywriting. You can't be too simplified. But there is also that delicate balance between being too simplified and getting into too much detail.

Samantha: Yeah, and it's also about the right level of detail at the right stage in the buyer journey.

Derek: Yeah.

Samantha: I've worked with quite a few clients who want to give all the information at once, anything the customer might need, at the very first point of contact. And it's...

Derek: I was at a conference called “This Thing” in San Francisco a number of years ago. And one of the speakers said that one of the big things that infographics in particular has to get over is what he called “map shock”. Map shock occurs, in his words, when you try and get too much information to the end user at too early a stage. You know, when they look at it and just get confused instantly and switch off.

Samantha: Yeah, so infographics. Don't worry if you don't know what infographics are. It's basically a way to get across the most important information that a potential buyer might need through design. But there are good infographics and bad infographics. I've definitely seen both. So how do you go about using design, I guess, including infographics to get across these more complex messages?

Derek: You have to work quite closely with the client or copywriter, just to work out what's really important, and what needs to get across. Sometimes there's a process or a journey involved, and you need to map that out and work it out as clearly as possible to get just the right amount of information across to the right people. But yeah, I know what you mean about infographics. You do get infographics where it's just a page full of figures and some little diagrams in it. And that's not really an infographic. Through infographics you should be able to take away the majority of the words, and it should still be reasonably understood.

Samantha: Yeah, so the other day, literally a couple of days ago, I was looking at an infographic from a big IT company. They are not one of my clients though, just to clarify. And it was just a bunch of text and loads of paragraphs over a little picture next to it. And they called that an infographic.

Derek: Hmmm... that sounds more like a table, actually.

Samantha: But yeah, so like I say, good infographics and bad infographics out there. So I guess from your point of view, the less is best?

Derek: Well, it depends on what you're getting across. And as I said, it's critical you work with the copywriter and the client, so you're getting that right amount of detail, because, as I say, you don't want to put too much information on. Quite often you can also do things interactively, which enables you to give a more basic high-level view. You can make it clickable or approve rollovers in, and provide extra detail that way. That's quite an effective way to do it. But only if you are able to do that.

Samantha: Yeah, is that generally web-based?

Derek: Web-based, as in HTML-based, or PDF. PDF is quite a good way of doing it as well.

Samantha: Ah, interactive PDFs. Right.

Derek: It's a bit more clunky than HTML. HTML is a smoother experience. As I said, PDF can be a bit more clunky, but it is still very usable. And we've done that frequently over the years.

Samantha: And I guess that helps with… You're using design there to guide that customer through the journey and to help them find the information that's relevant to them.

Derek: Yes, indeed. And you can map it out as a journey or just basically pool as much information that make sense to you, without using iconography. Most of the time, it's using a graphic or an illustration and just trying to use imagery that the end user is going to understand.

Samantha: Yes. Yes. Yeah, so a lot of these issues are resonating with me because it's very similar from a copywriting point of view. And so, did you...? I guess when you're working with a client, working out the process, you'll have different ideas about what exactly and how much information should be there, depending on what it is you're doing. So, if you're doing an infographic that's just for social media, that's going to be very different from like, the interactive PDF that you were talking about, I'm guessing?

Derek: Yes, definitely. Anyway for social media, you just want to get much punchier, to get the message across quickly and simply. And for the likes of social media, you don't want to do one larger graphic, you may want to do a serie and you know, break it into a series or...

Samantha: Oh, the carousel posts?

Derek: Yes, indeed. Yeah. It can almost be habit-building as well. You know, if it is a journey, you can design it, so that as you click through the various images, the image will build up. It is often much more effective than throwing everything at the user in one image.

Samantha: Yeah.

Derek: And especially if you're doing it that way, the copy and text will be more relevant and more important, rather than, you know, focusing purely on the image.

Samantha: Then, let's think about design and getting that message across. Make it nice and simple for a user, I guess. Are you also using design to guide the users’ eyes to the right area, and to that thing that you want them to pay the most attention to?

Derek: Yes, I mean, generally the rule is to start top left and end bottom right. But it just depends. It's getting the balance right. You have to work out how your design is going to flow across the image or around the image. There was a real craze for circular infographics at a time, but that only works if it's a process which will repeat.

Samantha: Yeah.

Derek: And it can be quite confusing, if you get back to square one.

Samantha: Yeah, yeah, if it's actually linear. Yeah, using the right type of image is quite important. Yes.

Derek: Well, generally, a lot of the work I do tends to be internal work. So, you know, you're doing it, but it's not for external views, unfortunately, so you can't show it to people. But I know from a few experiences in the past, that when you show clients some of your portfolio, they say: "Oh, I really like that."
And it’s like: "Well, it doesn't quite fit the story you're trying to tell."
"Yeah, but I really like that. I want that."

Samantha: Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they are there to show you what I can do. It's not a catalogue.

Derek: Yes. I'll have that one. But can you mix that one into that other one?

Samantha: Yeah, I've had similar experiences. But that's a really good point, talking about the internal. Because internal marketing is something that's often overlooked. But actually, especially in larger, complex organisations it is really important, because everyone needs to understand their place in the organisation, and how that impacts the end user.

Derek: That's so true. It's so true, especially when there's some big corporate change going through, you know, there's mergers, etc. or complete restructuring. And especially now, so many companies are going through the same thing, as they are looking at what smart working is going to look like. They've got to explain so many things to staff. I mean, there may be some security protocols changing, new password or security policies are implemented, etc. These are just some of the things I've been doing recently for various companies. In those cases, you've got to explain that to staff effectively. They must understand it quickly, and it has to be in a way that they'll actually pay attention to, without going into too much detail. Well, at least, without going into irrelevant details that they don’t really need to know. So, it’s about getting the facts across, which, as you know, is difficult, but…

Samantha: Yes, yes. It's... well, I guess, you and I are both used to doing it now. But yeah, it can be a bit overwhelming, especially when you first look at it. You think: “Whoa, where do I start?” It's all about breaking that down, isn't it?

Derek: Yeah. Well, I mean, you understand as well, it's looking at it from an objective point of view. And understanding what the end user needs. It's quite a skill.

Samantha: Yeah, and putting that information out to clients, when they don't necessarily... People sometimes forget that maybe the people they're talking to don't already know certain things. They sort of assume a level of knowledge, which isn't necessarily there. And it's putting that information out to them. You know, you have to tell them: "Okay, let's take it a step back, and then move it forward again." I think that's quite common. Especially if the person that you're working with is more technical, it's easy for them to forget that the people they are speaking to aren't... Like the acronyms, for example, that you were talking about. They may not be used to that kind of talk, you know, perhaps they don't know the acronyms off the top of their head. I've certainly worked for... I mean, the thing with engineers is that they are one of the worst for it, for that one at least.

Derek: I completely understand. They think that every part of the process, and every little detail is important.

Samantha: Yes.

Derek: While most of the rest of the organisation don't need to know the majority of that.

Samantha: Yes, yeah, yeah. They are missing some of the information because they just assume that everyone already knows that, they don't need to bother about that. And then they go into too much detail about other stuff. And it's about reminding them: "You are not the audience. And so take a step back and put yourself in the shoes of the audience." And I think that's so true for everyone, no matter how complex or simple your offering is. But I think that is something that technical guys often really struggle with. But it's really rewarding working with these guys. I'm sure you find the same thing. It’s a great feeling when you are getting something out there that actually meets the need of the end user, whether that's internal or external.

Derek: Yeah, indeed, something that actually works. I mean, sometimes it can be as simple as explaining simple things. You know, if something breaks, then who do you speak to? What's the process? It's incredible. But it's also very useful for both, to get the other’s point of view. It can be interesting to, even for the CTO of an organisation to realise that someone at the front desk can't do their job because there's a printer not working somewhere, or there's a connection not working somewhere. So that it all connects from both ends. And then they could've realised that their printer is not working, and they need to find out how to fix that themselves. And the process that goes through, even though it may not be as important, because maybe something else is broken, but perhaps you're just interested in what's not working for you, you should be able to get that information quickly.

Samantha: Yes. Yes, that's the thing. They don't care about the details. They just want to know how to get it fixed.

Derek: Yeah.

Samantha: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I guess you have to spend quite a lot of time going through and working out what those processes are? Especially if you're dealing with an internal client.

Derek: You do. Yes. Actually, I was discussing this with someone recently. It's amazing the things that you learn. You know, there's so much about IT, that I now know that I had no interest in knowing. But even things like, knowing how pain receptors connect to the brain. As I had to do some infographics on that, explaining their functions.

Samantha: Wow, that's fascinating.

Derek: It's incredible, some of the things that you actually learn in the process. Of course, it's really just a high level that you need to use to get certain points across. But you do have to find out more details, just so that you can figure out what to leave in and what to emphasise.

Samantha: Yeah, yeah. And sometimes that is a skill, isn't it?

Derek: Yeah, that's the fun bit.

Samantha: Yeah.

Derek: As you know.

Samantha: Yeah. Are there other things that people who might be watching this video should consider? So are there things that, I guess are relevant for everyone? Because even if you've got a relatively simple offering, I think it's always best to simplify it for your audience. Because people are bombarded with hundreds or even thousands of messages a day. Is there general advice that people need to think about when it comes to design for their marketing?

Derek: Well, I mean, ideally, it ties into their branding, so that they've got a consistent message going through everything they do. And that goes from the visual aspect to the wording. But it's really just about them understanding what it is that their end user, or their customer wants to know. You know, without going into too much detail, without giving them too much extra detail that they don't need. It's just making sure they're getting a consistent message and that message also has to make sense.

Samantha: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it often gets lost actually how important brand is or even what brand is. There's branding, which represents a brand and I think a lot of people think: "Oh, it's not very important." Especially for your internal documents: "That's not important. That's not important." But actually, research shows that it is really important. That from an external point of view, the more recognisable you are, the better for you. Being recognisable means, that you come to mind easily for the products or services you are offering, and that you're consistent in your tone of voice. Consistency in this case means, that the way you put your copy together, and your design, but also include various things like your logo and other icons as well that always, you know, pop out. Things that are you.

I mean McDonald's, famously even have a whistle. That you'd know immediately: it's that brand. You will come to mind when someone wants something that you sell or, you know, services you provide. And internally as well, it's really important that that brand is really embedded.

If people understand what the brand is as a whole, it makes a real difference, even in monetary terms. And for those watching, by ‘the brand as a whole’, I am talking about the core of the company, and what they stand for, what they represent for the end user, to their customer. If everyone in the company understands that and really lives the brand, it has a real impact. I think it's twice the profit amount margin of other companies within their sector, which is huge. And I think it's easy to dismiss the importance of internal communications and making sure that they are correctly branded as well, but it really helps embed the values. I don't know, do you come across that pushback on that front?

Derek: No, you're spot on. That's exactly right. I mean the branding goes from the visual image that a company portrays, but also right through the company from top to bottom. You know, as you said, everybody needs to feel part of the company and everybody's going in the same direction and knows exactly what the company is about and all their values, etc. We've worked with some fascinating companies over the years, some who have a company ethos and a company statement. There's one company in particular we used to work with, in the US, which has their company ethos carved in stone at the front door of the headquarters. And it was interesting because they changed their branding because of it. Originally it was aligned left text so then they’ve decided that everywhere this is used, it should be centred. Then it was pointed out, that they're going to have to re-carve this stone or something, so the brand guidelines were then readjusted before they went live.

Samantha: Alright.

Derek: Little things like that. You know, to be consistent right across, that needs to be centred rather than arranged left, because changing that wouldn’t be just a quick print job.

Samantha: No. No. You hear all these stories, don't you? "Oh, they changed the logo ever so slightly and it cost”, you know, however many thousand pounds it cost them. And then they go: “I could have done it cheaper. I could have...", you know. But it's not just the re-design itself that actually requires skills. Graphic design isn't as easy as people think it is, but then there are also other aspects. Right, so all your letterheads need to be reprinted, all your signage needs to be redone, etc. I don't want to sound… but the costs really mount up.

Derek: That's so true. It's when you see these figures about this rebrand costing so many millions. Well, the designers didn't get paid that. That's just the cost that's down to repainting everything and re-signing everything and yeah, it's incredible. I mean, there are some organisations who have two corporate brand guidelines. They've got the external, customer-facing branding and they've also then got an internal communications branding which goes to staff, just to differentiate it slightly. And there's usually more fun involved in creating that. You know, it’s just not quite as corporate.

Samantha: Yeah.

Derek: So it can be quite fun.

Samantha: Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine. I've worked for a very large multinational organisation for a while, and they were so stuffy at the time, although, I think they’ve relaxed a little bit more now, but they were really stuffy back then. But yeah, there were certain document types that were for internal use, that still had all those brand guidelines, that we had to use. But it was quite hard to convince people outside the marketing department sometimes that that was really important.

Derek: And then of course you get branding issues with mergers, for example, where one company buys another. And one of the companies which is possibly the incoming company is losing its branding as a result. And employees may have been there for a long time and don't want to lose it. So you see years later that they're still using notepads branded with the previous company logo, and they do as much as they possibly can to just slow the corporate changeover.

Samantha: Yes, yeah. That's always a tricky one, isn't it? When it's gradually changing that branding, because if not… And, like you say, you've got all those employees who are quite emotional about their company and attached to the original brand. You've got all that brand equity as well, you know, the recognisability of that brand that you don't want to lose. So you've got to get it just right, in terms of gradually moving to the new brand.

Derek: Well, I suppose there's good examples of employees really being embedded in the culture. They're so linked to their previous company's branding and culture that they don't want to leave it behind them.

Samantha: Yeah, it shows that the previous management did a good job. And now the new management needs to pull them in. But it's hard sometimes.

Derek: Yeah, it's usually when you're doing internal communications, it's a good idea to target those first that you think are going to be more resistant. Especially when it’s a lot of change all at once. Your first instinct would probably be to target the people that you think are quite keen, you know, they're quite up for the change,. whatever change is coming. But as I said, you should focus on the difficult ones first, because if you can win them over, then they will bring everyone else with them, rather than pulling back every time.

Samantha: That's a very great tip for internal comms when you've got a change of management going on.

Derek: Yes.

Samantha: Yeah, I've seen that as well. If you get the most stubborn people involved, especially if you get them involved from the ground up, pull them in on special projects and make them feel special as part of it.

Derek: Yeah, that's definitely it. Get them involved.

Samantha: It makes a huge difference.

Derek: If you can get them involved, then it's a win-win.

Samantha: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, so I guess from what you told me, it sounds like actually a lot of what you do, although the work you produce is ultimately design, I guess a lot of what you do goes beyond that. There's a lot of strategy involved.

Derek: There is. There is a lot of work done with the stakeholders on the client side. And, you know, there's quite a lot of process going through to actually just figuring out what message needs to come across and what goes in the graphics, etc. So yes, there's quite a lot of workshop-work as well. Well, it's one of those things that has been quite difficult: not being able to do in-room workshops, because those tend to work best in-person. You know, if you're standing around whiteboards, etc., or I'd usually do quite a lot of scribing. So I'll take over the pens and the whiteboard. So that everyone else can just concentrate on the discussion. And I'll stand at one side and draw everything in, hopefully pull out all the important points.

Samantha: Yes. Workshops like that, they are so hard to do online. So hard. I had my first face-to-face meeting with a client the other week, after a very long time, and it made such a difference to just being able to sit there together. We were looking at processes for her in this case. It was marketing automation. But it was so much easier because we were there with coloured pens, and we were both able to go: "Oh, yeah, and you gotta think about this." And it made such a huge difference, being face-to-face. It's so hard doing that online. There's so much you can do remotely, but I think that's one of the things that's so much easier face-to-face.

Derek: Especially when you've got multiple people involved.

Samantha: Yes.

Derek:  Much, much easier. Yeah. Much more productive.

Samantha: I tried to run a workshop with three people last year, and we’ve got it done in the end. This was about a marketing plan. But it's really hard. I mean, it's so hard with a group of people. But yeah, even one on one, it's so much easier face-to-face. And multiple people make it that much harder. Because normally what I would do running a workshop is very much how you described: Get everyone in the room, you know, writing stuff across your flip charts, or your whiteboards, or whatever. And everyone shouts stuff at you, or you get them in corners with their ideas and bring it all together at the end. And that's just not something that works very well on, you know, Zoom or Teams or whatever.

Derek: And there's something about the immediacy of the post-it notes when people write things down and see them. With sharpies and post-it notes you can even move them around and plan things out that way. It makes such a difference. I mean, there are great tools out there, like Miro which you can connect into Zoom. And you can emulate that in a bit of a way, but it's nothing quite like having a pen and paper, or a pen and a wall.

Samantha: There's something very tactile about it, isn't there? When you're doing that sort of thing.

Derek: Yeah, probably.

Samantha: And it really helps. Yeah, yeah. I'm glad it's not just me that struggles with that kind of thing.

Derek: No, I think the last big workshops I was involved with were... I think it was a week before lockdown last year. So I was down in Birmingham at the beginning of March last year, and that's so long ago now.

Samantha: I know. I know. And at the same time it seems... I don't know about you, but I feel like the last couple of years, I'm just not quite sure where they've gone. It seems so long ago and yet no time has passed at the same time.

Derek: It's crazy. It’s that the last year… it's just disappeared.

Samantha: Yeah, it was very strange, a very strange time. And I can't wait for things to get back to even more normal. So yeah. And I think, even if people don't really have the budget to go to, you know, someone like me or someone like you. I think that it's a good point as well that when we think about these processes, think about how to communicate things, we sit down and go through the process and everything involved, and figure out what the objectives are. These are all really important things to do before we actually try and design something or, you know, put an advert out there or put a blog together or whatever.

Derek: Yeah, and even just bringing in people that wouldn't normally be involved, just to get their take. Because it could be people outside their normal sphere, that they need to get the information across to.

Samantha: Yes. Oh, that's absolutely key. That is really key. There are so many things, like for brand workshops, for example, I like to try and get not just, you know, the manager of the company, and the directors, but I like to get everyone's point of view in, because otherwise you miss things. Like the sales guys who talk to the customers on a day-to-day basis, they'll pick up on things that, you know, the managing director has no idea of. Customer service is the same. And if you can interview clients as part of the process as well, that's the end user. That's even better, because you pick up on so many things.

Derek: Yeah, and even, you know, front desk. I mean, they're the ones that see everyone coming into the building. Our viewers and readers will now think: "Remember those days of going into a building?" So, they've got a great insight as well into staff and suppliers. They see the whole sphere that the company has to deal with.

Samantha: Yeah, that brings to mind a similar incident that I have seen. I was doing a piece of research at the company I was working at, which operated in the aggregates industry. And from an engineering point of view, they were trying to market things, focusing on how reliable their products were and how we were the best products from that point of view. But actually talking to the sales guys, or one particular sales guy in this case, who picked up on the fact that the customers just don't have time. They don't care how reliable the product is. They are just too busy running around, so, of course if something is more reliable, they are also spending less time on it. It's just a step beyond and when you're trying to grab someone's attention, it's getting that right twist on it. So, we funnily enough worked with an internal graphic designer, and he put a bunch of infographics together all about how, you know, these products save you man-hours. And that... I mean, that was a completely different message, but really easy to get across in a graphical way. And they've got the right attention. So it's like you say, it's really important to bring all those people in, to make sure that you are on the right track, and you are talking about the right information and spinning it in the right way.

Derek: Yeah, spinning it in the right way is a big thing. We did a project for a client, at the beginning of a previous company and they were having trouble getting remote staff to connect to the system, to make sure all their files are synchronised. So they wanted a way to sort of encourage them to do that. They tried for quite a long time. So we actually ended up gamifying it. We produced Z cards, little fold out credit cards. We had infographic on one side saying this is exactly how the process works. And it's really simple. And all the detail, all the contact numbers, etc. But we have also put a unique number on the back of each card. And they said: “Right, each month we'll have a prize draw or something, the prize may be an iPad one month, lunch with the Head of Sales the next month.” And the staff then held on to these things, actually referred back to them and they got people onto the system very, very quickly after spending a couple of years just failing miserably and almost giving up.

Samantha: That's genius.

Derek: But it's just these little things to encourage people.

Samantha: Yeah, psychology plays a huge part in successful marketing, and you know, design.

Derek: It's just about getting the tone of voice right. You'll know that from your experience. If you're getting the tone of voice right for the end customer and the target market, it makes a massive difference to how successful it is.

Samantha: Yes. Yeah, absolutely huge. Yeah, I feel like I need to spend a lot more time studying psychology to learn even more, because you know, we are finding out more and more about like nudge theory and so on, which must be huge for internal communications when you need people to be behaving a certain way and following certain processes.

Derek: Yes, and exactly, especially the nudge theory helps getting them to behave a certain way while also then subconsciously getting them to encourage others to behave the same way. And everyone pushes each other on. Rather than aiming at an individual, you're trying to build up that team mentality. And if it works, it's really successful.

Samantha: Yeah. Yeah. So, I think in some organisations more than others, they don't appreciate marketing or even worse, design. I know designers have been called the colouring in department. So hopefully, this is getting across, that actually, it's a little bit more scientific than that.

Derek: It is. Yeah. We have been described that a few times. It was out at client meetings once someone said: "Oh, he's in charge of colouring in."

Samantha: Yeah, I think it's really important to get across to people. And I think one of the things that's great about this interview is getting across just how much more there is to design, than just, you know, putting some stuff together on Photoshop or InDesign or whatever. There's a lot more involved, before you even start on your artwork.

Derek: Yeah. That's right. There's a lot of thought and processes first. I think, I mean, I'm old-school, so I start with pencil and pen on a pad or on an iPad, rather than jump into the software like Adobe Illustrator, InDesign, etc. I think you can work through so many ideas more quickly with a pen and paper than you can do sitting in front of a computer. Also, it's away from a screen for a period, rather than just spending all day staring at a screen. As in the last year and a half or so, the amount of time people spent just staring at their Zoom.

Samantha: Oh gosh, yes.

Derek: Any excuse to jump away from a screen must be good.

Samantha: Absolutely. I had a couple of weeks off recently, and it made a huge difference. I think, my eyes were suffering. They felt a lot better afterwards. And I can see further now. I'm sure I can.

Derek: I think as we too managed to get away for two weeks this summer. And I think although the second week I was getting some work done, but I think the thing I've noticed most is the relief of just being away from constantly staring at your screen.

Samantha: Yeah.

Derek: That had much more of an impact than actually not working all day every day.

Samantha: Yeah, I think that's huge. And I think you're more productive as well. Just the fact that you're doing things in different ways, you end up being more productive. In a way, a change is almost as good as a break sometimes. So just doing things in different mediums can already be significant, from the end user's point of view as well. If you do things in different mediums, so you got your digital online stuff, you've got stuff in print, you know, these things sink in better then. I think it's similar to producing work as well. Using different mediums and yeah, I use pen and paper a lot. And I'm sure it really helps.

Derek: Oh it does. Definitely, definitely. It's that connection between the brain and the hand. You don't quite get that with a mouse. It can definitely make a difference.

Samantha: Huge difference. Yeah. And is there anything else that we haven't covered? Anything that you think is important to get across to people when it comes to making messages as simple as possible?

Derek: I think we’ve covered most things I can think of, off the top of my head.

Samantha: We've covered a lot to be fair. I just thought: "make sure we've covered everything." Excellent. Yes, and I think there's a lot of great information in there. Thank you very much.

Derek: That's good. Always happy to be helpful.

Samantha: And before we go, do you have anything you need to plug? Anything that you want people to know?

Derek: Not really. When I'm working, I just like to work on my projects. There are so many people now talking and advising, well not just creatives but anyone, that the way you should market your business nowadays is to niche down and really specialise and focus. And I just like doing the complete opposite. I just like doing so many different things. And over the years, I've been so guilty of saying yes to something and then thinking: "Right, how are we going to do that?" Rather than say: "Yeah, that's easy, we can do this." It's so much more fun, if you've then got to go and work out how you're going to do something and stretch yourself a bit.

Samantha: So, if you've got something that's really complicated, really hard...

Derek: Speak to Samantha first and then I'll colour it in.

Samantha: Right, okay, well, I will share all your links anyway when I put this out. Yeah, thank you very much, and thank you everyone for watching.

Derek: You are welcome. Thank you.

If you want more information about design from Derek email him at  derek@canalpath.com.

If you need any help with your marketing, call me on 07791 521439 or email me at samantha@labrakita.co.uk

Interviewer: Samantha Tonge, Managing Director, Labrakita Marketing