Interview with Nicky Parker: common mistakes in marketing

Nicky is a Chartered Marketer and a Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Marketing. She founded Bang in 2006.

Nicky’s links:

Website
LinkedIn

Watch the video here or read the transcript below if you prefer.

 

Transcript:

Samantha Tonge: Hi, it's Samantha Tonge, Labrakita Marketing again. I’m here with my latest expert interview, talking to people who either work in marketing or are in some way related to marketing. Today I have Nicky Parker on, who's got a very similar background to me. So, yeah, over to you, Nicky. Please explain a bit about who you are and what you do.

Nicky Parker: Sure. Thank you very much for having me. Yep, I'm Nicky Parker, and I run Bang Consulting. We are currently in the process of migrating from being a fully outsourced marketing agency to delivering in-depth marketing consultancy. Our aim is to help businesses, and correct where they're going wrong with their marketing. So, we usually start with a quite detailed deep-dive audit. We literally lift every stone and find out what's crawling out from underneath. Then we present back to the board; we tell them what our findings are, we give them some recommendations. And then we talk through, you know, whether they want our support, or whether they want to carry on with a blueprint and do it themselves.

Samantha: Okay. Okay. So, people call you in, I guess, because they know something's not working quite right. Is that it?

Nicky: Yeah, I think that's probably fair. This might be because, and actually, I find this quite a lot, with businesses that have grown despite themselves, for want of a better way of putting it. So they've grown their business, but it is very much by accident. They might have just been in the right place at the right time and done the right thing. Quite a lot of the clients that we have, don't really have a good handle on what marketing is and what marketing they should be doing for their business.

Samantha: Yeah. Okay.

Nicky: So, I think often what's happened is that they get to a point where growth has stagnated, or things aren't adding up any longer, you know. The marketing budget is being spent, but they're not really seeing a return on it, or they're not really sure what they should be measuring to get a return on it. All that sort of stuff really.

Samantha: Okay. And what would you say are the most common problems that you see marketers or companies making? So what are the most common mistakes companies are making with their marketing?

Nicky: I think the overriding issue that they all have is to do with the customer. They haven't got their customer profiles bottomed out; they don't understand their customer. They don't use their customer's language: they talk at their customer, not to their customer. So, you know, then they do a myriad of very strange things, because they don't know where their customer is. For example, there is no point in advertising on the radio, if your customers don't listen to the radio. There is no point in advertising in the Mail on Sunday, if your customers don't read The Mail on Sunday, and it... you know, I mean those are just a couple of those things well people will go: “Well, we wouldn't do either of those things”. But it's true, whatever you do. You know, another recent example is that there's no point in you being on TikTok, just because it's the latest trend.

Samantha: Yeah.

Nicky: If your customers don't look at TikTok, that's a waste of time. Just, you know, I think what happens is that you get two clients, you get the: "Well, we've always done it that way". So, with those you are like: "Okay, but the world has moved on". Or you get the others, where there are people within the organisation that are after the next shiny, shiny, and they keep going off on all these tangents, doing things that are a waste of time and money. So that's definitely the biggest issue. And then there's also that element of not appreciating that you need to give something time. It's no good doing it and two days later: "Well, we've tried that, and that didn't work". “Well hold on a moment, you haven't actually given it enough time.” And then when you start talking to him about: "Well, how long is your sales cycle?" "What do you mean?" "Well, how long does it take from when you first talk to a prospect for them to become customer?" "Well, six months." "Okay, so how can you measure in two or three days whether something has worked or not? You haven't even given it, you know, a couple of months. And have you moved them down the sales cycle?" So, it is really about that. And if they adjusted their marketing to the sales cycle, they would find it more effective. Also understanding that the very first time a prospective customer hears about you and sees you, they're not going to want War and Peace from you is very important. They're going to want something light touch, something snackable, if you like. We're going from the afternoon snack, and we're building up to the full banquet as we get closer to the sale. I mean, that's probably truer in B2B than it is in B2C. But even in B2C, you know, I mean, it depends on the ticket item. You know, there's obviously a much quicker buying process between: "Do you want a Mars bar, when you go to the petrol station and decide that you're hungry?" versus "Do you want that new Audi S7?" You know, the cost is very different.

Samantha: Yes.

Nicky: And, therefore, the decision-making processes are quite different as well. And it's about understanding that. And understanding what the customer will want in each part of the journey, to move them to the next part of the journey.

Samantha: That is interesting. That this is something I come across a lot in the sort of industries that I work with; the technical-type industries, where especially if the business owner is a very technical person, you know, they might have been started with a great product that was developed by an engineer. And the way they think is: "Oh, well, customers need all of the information at once", rather than, as you say, a piece of it, or as you know, the right amount of information, depending on where the customers are in their journey. Yeah. It's interesting.

Nicky: And I think, then what happens is they disappear down the technical rabbit hole as well, like: “I need to give them all this technical information.” “Well, hold on a moment, the customer isn't technical, the customer just buys, it doesn't do what you do, doesn't understand the technical aspects of it. They're buying your expertise. You don't need to wow them with your knowledge and skill set. What they want is a solution to their problem. And they want to be reassured that you know what the right solution to their problem is, not blinding them with science, because then the customer ends up feeling stupid, because they don't understand. And they don't want to admit that they don't understand. So, then they walk away because they're like: “I don't have any confidence in this company, because I don't think I'm going to understand them. And, therefore, I am not sure they get what my problem is or what I need.”

Samantha: Yes, yeah, yeah. And then I find the other problem is that if they're marketing to fellow technical people, they forget that even technical people don’t always need all the information at once. Even they only have so much time; they're bombarded with messages. And, you know, you've got to grab their interest before they want all this technical information, even if at some point in the buying process, they will want all of that technical information.

Nicky: Yep.

Samantha: Yeah. And speed, like you said. It resonated with me what you’ve just said as well, the speaking of the customer's language. So many... well, tech companies are particularly bad for this, is using their own terminology,…

Nicky: Yeah.

Samantha: …not, you know, what a customer would be searching for. Even some websites, they are organised by their own internal product codes.

Nicky: What's that?

Samantha: Yeah. Which only they understand.

Nicky: Oh, yeah, we've got the 500, 600, 700. What does the OQ mean anyway?

Samantha: Exactly, exactly. That's interesting. And I think you kind of touched on this already, with people that are not giving things enough time. Does it happen often that people call you in, thinking that there's a problem with their marketing, but actually the core issue is in a different part of their business?

Nicky: That happens a lot. So there probably are things and there are always things that need to be fixed with a marketing, but when you start talking to people, often you stumble upon other problems. So, we always interview the whole board, and then we talk to the entire marketing team. And then we interview all the other stakeholders that are in any way connected to marketing: Sales, BizDev (business development), you know, whatever it is, depends on the business. I've just recently done something for a retail business. So there, obviously, you want to talk to store managers as well, and understand them. And when you take this approach, other stuff kind of just falls out from these conversations. You know, it might be things that people don't see as connected with marketing, but they are really, really important. For example, credit control: how you tell somebody that they owe you money is, you know, can be very polite and friendly, or it can be exceptionally rude. And it's also about being realistic. You know, once somebody hasn't paid a bill, you don't cut them off the day after their bill was due. So it's about considering what a reasonable process might be, but most importantly, it's about communication and ensuring that the whole business communicates in the same way. So sometimes there's a disconnect between, you know: "Well, we come across as friendly and customer-focused, etc., etc." And then you start to look at the various things and you go: “Well, you might be in that bit, but in that other bit, I wouldn't call that very customer-focused.” So it's about making sure that the whole thing joins up really. And sometimes it just doesn't.

Samantha: That's interesting. That's interesting. And do you come across the relationship between sales and marketing being an issue a lot? Is that something you see very often?

Nicky: Well, it is a bit of a standing joke for us, actually, because I work really closely with an ex big-ticket IT-Sales guy.

Samantha: Okay.

Nicky: He comes in and he does customer interviewing. And he also helps with pricing, sales and business development mentoring, account management training, that sort of things. And we always laugh about the fact that sales and marketing don't normally, but we do play nicely in the sandpit together. At least that is the expression I tend to use in that context. But yes, you're right that, you know, it is quite common that sales think it's marketing that’s the problem, and marketing think it's sales. Marketing's concept is often that sales sell the dream and then nobody can fulfil that dream, because you've just sold them, whatever the customer wants to buy. Whereas sales think all marketing do is the colouring in, you know, they make the presentation look pretty. And they order the branded pens and mugs, etc., etc. So, as I said, it is a bit of a standing joke between the two of us, however, underneath it all, we both very much respect what the other does.

Samantha: Yeah.

Nicky: But I would say that in many organisations, there is quite a lot of tension between sales and marketing. And I think it can be so easily resolved, you know, if they just sat down together and talked about: “Okay, sales guys, what do you need to help you do your job better?” And, you know, bringing out that knowledge from the sales team. “Tell us everything you're learning from the customer. What are the objections the customers are giving you? Why isn't the customer buying? What's their concern?”

Samantha: Yeah.

Nicky: You know, sometimes they go: "Well, they don't do it in green". Let's unpick why that might be, or what the problem is with that. So, it's just a conversation thing. And I think that sometimes attentions just can get bigger and bigger and bigger, and everyone's not going: "Hold on. Let's just re-switch here. Let's refocus and see if we can rethink this."

Samantha: Yeah, yeah, certainly. When I've been client side, I learnt how important it is to build up that relationship with sales. And, you know, sometimes you have a predecessor who didn't do that. And you're kind of...

Nicky: Yeah. You are starting on the backfoot. Yeah, yeah.

Samantha: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's important to go on sales visits with them, and that kind of thing. And like you say, they know the issues that the customers have far better than anyone else, you know, things you might not be aware of. Stuff is coming from corporate Head Office, because, you know, the Board thinks: this is the message, or that the message should be XYZ, and you find that, actually, sales guys on the ground have this information already. And it changes everything.

Nicky: And that really neatly brings you onto data, which is the other problem, isn't it? So you've got that whole process to figure out. Where is all that information going? And quite often it's on bits of paper in the back of salesmen's cars or in their briefcase. Or it's sometimes on a piece of paper where somebody has scribbled something, you know. And well, you know, you just need to gather information together. Even the most expensive CRM system... This was...

Samantha: I think we might have lost Nicky. Right. I'll stop recording in a minute. And hopefully, she'll be back. Oh, you're back!

Nicky: I am!

Samantha: You disappeared for a bit there.

Nicky: Oh, sorry.

Samantha: No, no, it might be on my end. I better check. While I ask you the next question, I'm also going to just double check my internet connection. So yes, data. You were talking about...? Sorry, I missed that last bit, after you mentioned the CRM system.

Nicky: Yeah. So, it doesn't have to be, you know... I mean there are CRMs that are free, and then there are CRMs that are incredibly expensive. And it's not about having the most expensive, and the most complicated CRM system. Actually, I would argue, the simpler it is, the better it is, because it's more likely that people will use it then. Whereas if you've got, you know, half a thousand fields in it, everyone's going to go: "Oh, I haven't got time to fill that in." So, they don't fill any of it out. Whereas, you know, if you have a field, and perhaps a free-flow box, it is better. Of course, there is one trouble with free-flow boxes: they require more analysis afterwards. But you must be able to somehow capture this stuff. Because otherwise nobody's like: "Well, hold on a moment, we still know nothing about the customer." Well, you do, but it's just that nobody's pulling it all together.

Samantha: Yeah. And it's...

Nicky: It's looking at habits and things, you know? What are the most popular items? What are the things that are languishing on the shelf? Why are they languishing on the shelf? Have you tried giving them a bit of love to see if you can get them reignited in people's interest? Or is it just something that nobody wants anymore? And if it is, then what's it doing on the shelf? Get rid of it and find something that they do want.

Samantha: Yeah.

Nicky: I do find that quite strange. That whole: People don't seem to... when they sell any kind of product, people don't seem to review that that regularly. They don’t look at what people's buying habits are telling us.

Samantha: That's a scary one.

Nicky: Where the evidence in the CP (customer-product) world is really, really strong. You know, you see them constantly. I mean, you and I are both classically marketing-trained. So, we get that.

Samantha: Yeah.

Nicky: But that whole Boston box thing about moving the products round and refreshing the product, so that it continues to be your cash cow kind of thing. And I think, you know, you don't need to be classically marketing-trained to understand that your best product is the one that you need to be thinking of variations of. Or what can you do to keep it fresh and in people's minds? Which is why we've moved from washing powder many years ago to the capsules and liquid and goodness knows what else washing liquid things we've got now, because there isn't an alternative to that. So that's how they keep it fresh.

Samantha: Yeah, yeah. And thinking about that, it brings to mind an issue I had. So in my experience, sometimes the real issue with a product that's not moving, is that they're pricing it wrong in either direction.

Nicky: Yeah. And I think it's really interesting, because that kind of also comes along with brand perception, doesn't it?

Samantha: Yeah.

Nicky: So, if you tell everybody you're a high-end business, but when they look at you, you come across as an Aldi or Lidl. And these are fantastic brands, but they're positioned in a specific place in the market. You know, your disconnect between luxury brand and the way you are perceived is so far apart, that you aren't going to get the customer to buy into it, because they're like: "Well, I'm expecting a high-end experience, a Harrods-y experience or if we're using supermarkets, a Waitrose or a Marks & Spencer experience, but you're showing up like you're Lidl or Aldi. So, who are you?” So, you're right, you know, if you're pricing too low, and you're trying to set yourself as a premium product, then people start to feel anxious about it. But equally, if you're saying: “This is a cost-effective solution” and your price is sky high, people will be like: "Well, it doesn't feel very cost-effective to me. It feels like a lot of money." I mean, there's an argument to say, and I know that Alex, if he was here, the sales guy that I work with, he would say that the reason that they're reticent is because you haven't sold the value yet. And I would agree with that. But equally, there is only so much elasticity in the price, outwith, that the market will bear.

Samantha: Yes.

Nicky: So it's about being confident about that. I mean, I'm not a fan of these huge marketing plans that are like, you know, a couple of inches thick and quite useful to hold a door open, and that's about it. So, I'm not keen on getting clients to disappear too much down the rabbit hole of researching and analysing every single thing. I don't think it needs to be that deep. But having said that, over time, I would actively encourage them to have an understanding of what their competitors are doing. So that they know whether their pricing and their approach is right for the market or not. But largely, it's what their own customers are saying that is the key.

Samantha: Yes, yes. I guess it comes back to having that data. Sometimes price is a communication, like you said, you know, part of the communication is price as well as, you know, how much money is coming in.

Nicky: Yes.

Samantha: If you can, you know if you're making profit or not. Yeah. That's interesting. And that's it! That's a big issue in engineering as well. With technical products, where, you know, they're selling something that's highly-engineered, and will often save the customer thousands and thousands of pounds. But they're selling it for as low as like thirty quid, because although it's well-engineered, it is cheap to manufacture. Which is fair enough, but you're saying something about the product by selling it so cheap.

Nicky: Yeah.

Samantha: Yeah. It's interesting.

Nicky: And I think there's that whole thing about not valuing the expertise, you know. I used to work with an IT support company, and I used to say to the MD: “If you or one of your engineers walked into one of your customer's, took a piece of a chewing gum out of his mouth and put it in the server and got the IT back up and running, the customer would be happy.” And he said: "No, they wouldn't." I said: "Yes, they would. And the reason for that is: they don't care what you do, as long as their IT works."

Samantha: Yeah.

Nicky: What they're paying for is: “He knows where to put the piece of chewing gum.” Not that I'm suggesting they did that. But you know what I mean, it is that simple.

Samantha: Yeah.

Nicky: It's not about necessarily making it out to be: "Oh, it's complex". It's about having the knowledge and experience and understanding to know how to fix it. It's not what you did to fix it. You know, sometimes it's literally: "Oh, the cable's coming loose." Plug that back in: "Oh, look at that. Everything's working again."

Samantha: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I guess it comes back to... I guess, we might both have been taught this one in Chartered Institute of Marketing: the levels of the product. And the core product is what we actually sold to the customer at the end of the day. And in B2C sometimes that might be something purely emotional in reality. But in B2B, it's usually, you know, your example with the server being back on. I mean, I can do my work now. It's not, you know, XYZ cable was installed. The customers don't care about that.

Nicky: Right. And that, in the B2B world is more common, because they forget that people even there, still buy on emotion. It is still a real person that is doing the buying. And they do sort of go through that series of emotions about, you know: “If I choose this company, what's the effect going to be on me? What happens if I've got it wrong and they cock it up? That's my job or my reputation on the line.”

Samantha: Yeah.

Nicky: So, there is that level of anxiety. And all of that understanding is just as applicable in the business-to-business world, as it is in the consumer world.

Samantha: Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And quite often, it's unfortunately the way that it works. It's often that you're talking to them about the negative emotions that they're feeling. And you can then, you know, give them that confidence that they need, that that thing's going to work.

Nicky: Yep. Yeah. The pain and then how to move away from it.

Samantha: Yes, exactly. Exactly. The Challenger Sale, as they call it. Yeah.

Nicky: And then the whole new thing, which is, you know, that horrible phrase that we learnt: post-purchase dissonance. It is that whole thing about being afraid of: "Oh my God, did I make the right decision?" It's a bit like... the car is always the example for this one, isn't it? You chose a new car. You've signed on the dotted line. You've paid your deposit. Then they tell you what I would say normally takes three to four weeks, but at the moment, if you've bought a brand-new car, apparently, it's 18 months that you wait.

Samantha: Oh my gosh.

Nicky: Anyway. Yeah, I know. A nightmare. But you've decided you want to buy a car; you've agreed to it. And then you're like: "Oh my God, that was an awful lot of money, have I made the right decision?" And then you start to see them on the road, everywhere. And you're like: "Oh my God, they're really common. Do I want one of those?" And then you're like: "Are they okay?" And then you're like: "Should I go and talk to somebody who's got one of those?" All of that stuff goes on. So, the car company, who keeps in touch with you, who sends you a little photo to say: “Here's your car being cleaned at the moment”, or whatever. All of that stuff, you know. That's why so many car companies make a big drama out of it, when you rock up to take your car away. You know: the bow, the flowers, the clean, the look here, let me show you round it, we've put some petrol in it. All of those things. That's all to reassure you that you haven't made a mistake. And that's why the good ones, the car salesmen, then phone you three or four weeks later to make sure you're still okay, that you've worked out how everything works, you know. All of that stuff.

And that's a lesson that probably most of us could learn in a service or a product world about: “How are you supporting your customer to reassure them, that they've made the right decision?” You know, even with small items, it might be little mini videos about how to get the most out of it. You know, if you've bought some paint, this is different ways that you can apply your paint, this is what you need to do, for example, how to clean your brush to make sure that you can use it again. You know, it doesn't matter what it is, most things would benefit from a bit of reassurance of: "I've done a good job here, I've chosen the right company, and the right product or service."

Samantha: Yeah. So, I guess that's a bit of the customer journey that a lot of marketers forget about? Do you find that it's quite common when you're going into places that they've completely forgotten a bit of the customer journey? For example, that it is actually really important to keep in touch?

Nicky: Well, and, you know, it's back to that same old thing about: it is cheaper to continue to sell to your existing customer, than it is to win a new customer. And also, it's about how to move them from being a one-time customer, to a repeat customer, to a loyal customer, to becoming an advocate and a raving fan for you. And you know, that whole thing... How many times have we both heard the: "My customer is leaving and they're going somewhere else." "Why?" "Well, because they wanted to buy so and so, and so they've gone to one of our competitors. But we also do that." "Have you ever told them that you did that?" "No." "Okay, well, then how would they know?" So, they don't market to their existing customers afterwards. And this isn't all about: “Buy our stuff, buy our stuff!” This is about a continuing dialogue, that marketing people are just as responsible for as sales. And if it's done in the right way, we'll continue to reassure the customer. But equally, I have to say, I'm a huge fan of the whole, how you deal with it when it goes wrong, too. Because that is a way you change the customer from a disgruntled customer to that raving fan. If you handle that well. You know, if you dilute the heat in the argument, you resolve the problem quickly and easily. You know, you've got them eating out of your hand really, especially if you acknowledge: "Yeah, that's gone wrong. We're really sorry, that shouldn't have happened. This is what we're going to do to resolve that problem." It's easy to fix usually. And if it isn't, we are all human. But then again, it's okay. What can we do to fix this problem?

Samantha: Yes. And what I wouldn't suggest that anyone deliberately causes problems to their customers. Funnily enough, someone who's had an issue that has been fixed by a company often then is a much bigger fan of the company, than they would have been...

Nicky: Very much so.

Samantha: ...than they would have been, if nothing had gone wrong in the first place.

Nicky: Yeah, very much so. Yeah, yeah. When you've got that: "I'm not happy with this." "Oh, crikey. No, I can see why you wouldn't be. Let's see how we can solve that." It's so much better than the: "We haven't done anything wrong. It's not our problem."

Samantha: Yeah.

Nicky: You know, you just take the heat out of it, if you apologise, or if you recognise that there's an issue straightaway.

Samantha: Yes. Yeah, that's huge. Complaints management. It's something that I think a lot of companies overlook. Especially if, you know, if they were quite small, and it was really easy to deal with complaints in an informal way, but then they've become this big corporation, and they’ve just lost track of, you know, how to deal with unhappy customers.

Nicky: Yeah, that's about drawing up a process, which doesn't sound very interesting or sexy, and it isn't. But it super is when it goes wrong, because you've got that consistency. And that's key. So that, you know, they're always dealt with in the same way, not... you know, the one out on the shop floor suddenly takes into his head to deal with something differently, because he's answered the phone one Friday afternoon. And then you've got all hell breaking loose kind of thing. If it's always dealt with, in the same way, you've got that level of consistency. Otherwise, a customer could talk to another customer and go: "Well, that happened to me, and so and so happened" and then the first person was like: "Alright. That didn't happen for me."

Samantha: Yes, yes. And I guess that's where you start to get some serious reputation damage, potentially, if you're not handling that correctly?

Nicky: Yeah.

Samantha: Yeah, yeah. So, is there anything else we haven't covered? Anything that you think is a common issue that marketers and business owners, or senior management need to think about in terms of getting their marketing right or where they might be going wrong?

Nicky: I think: Have a plan, with absolute certainty. So, as I said, I don't think it needs to be War and Peace, quite frankly, you know. A couple of spreadsheets will do the job, you know, bit of a PowerPoint presentation sort of thing. It should include where you want to go with the business, what your strategy is, and then perhaps how you might get there. But you know, it doesn't have to be complicated. But you do need a plan, and you need a communications plan as well. So, what are you going to talk about all the time? Because I find so often that when I say to clients: "Okay, are you blogging, are you sending emails? Are you doing social?" "No." "Okay, why aren't you doing that?" "Well, I don't really know what to talk about." Well, the reason you don't know what to talk about is, because you haven't got a plan. So, if I suddenly said to you: "Write about something", you'd be like: "Oh, my God, what am I going to write about?" But if I said to you: "Right, next month, we're going to talk about, I don't know, post-purchase dissonance" or something, you'd already be thinking about that. So, when I said to you: "Okay, where are you at with that?" Now you go: "Yeah, I kind of have three quarters of it written in my head" sort of thing.

Samantha: Yeah.

Nicky: Now, I went to a company last year, or a couple of years ago, and I said: "Can you show me your coms plan?" And she said: "No." And I said: "How are you deciding what to talk about then?" Well, on a Monday morning, we all sit together and say: "What should we talk about this week?" And I'm like: "Alright. Okay. And how have you tied that in with, you know, what you're selling? And where you want to get to with the business?" "Oh, well, I didn't really think about that. I didn't even know that we needed to do that." "Alright. Okay. Yeah, no. That is quite key actually." So, you know, that's why it doesn't happen. And that's why, you know, you look at companies' social media, and it always seems so disjointed. One minute they're talking up a product, and they're talking about a result and then they're talking about something else. You know, it's because it just hasn't been thought through. And it doesn't have to be super difficult. Again, that could be a spreadsheet, but it's just a: "Okay, we're talking about tires this month. So, everything needs to be about tires, or whatever it is."

Samantha: Yeah. Yeah. And like you say, it all ties into the overall business goals. I've had quite a few clients that I've sat down with and gone: "Okay, let's start. What are your objectives?" "Oh, I don't know." "Well, if you don't know what you want to achieve, I can't help you."

Nicky: Yeah, or they go: "Well, I just need more leads."

Samantha: Yes.

Nicky: Yeah.

Samantha: How many more?

Nicky: It's really quite as straightforward as that. And I don't really want you to see marketing as like a lead-generation, sausage-making machine, because that isn't really what it is. You know, if we do generate leads, that's sometimes a coincidence, or a by-product of doing the marketing well. Also appreciating the difference between trying to do stuff to promote activity here and now, versus doing brand-building is quite important.

Samantha: Absolutely.

Nicky: And the consequences of both of those. If a company is obsessed with building their brand out, they cannot expect instant results in terms of sales, because that's a long-term plan. Whereas the... I've bought these things cheap, and I want to get them out. That's a whole different message set.

Samantha: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And you need to do both. You need to think about the long-term and the short-term. And one thing that often comes up is... I can't remember the company that bought them out, but someone bought Heinz, and they decided that everyone knows the name Heinz, so we don't need to do any brand-awareness campaigns, just lead-generation stuff. And it took a few years, you know, about three years, but they really damaged the value of the Heinz brand.

Nicky: Yeah, yep. Absolutely. Yeah. And yet, you're right, you know, if you say, tomato sauce, we all think Heinz ketchup, and  you can see the bottle, you know, etc., etc. Baked beans, Heinz, you know, we all think about specific products. We totally associated these things with them. But you're right. I mean, at the end of the day, if you didn't need to advertise, why did Coca Cola always advertise at Christmas? And they are probably one of the most well-known brands. Wherever you go in the world, that red and white, Coca Cola brand is everywhere. But they still advertise, because when you go to the supermarket to buy your Christmas drinks, you're going to have a Coke in the trolley rather than Pepsi or whatever else it might be.

Samantha: Yeah, yeah. It's keeping it in people's minds all the time.

Nicky: Yeah.

Samantha: Yeah, yeah, I see that. It's a common mistake as well. Just thinking of it in terms of lead-generation. And like you say, sometimes I have run brand-building campaigns that have, by accident, turned into leads. Which is a happy accident.

Nicky: Yes, alright. Yeah.

Samantha: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Brilliant. Okay. I think that's a lot of really good food for thought for a lot of marketers out there. And also businesses who have marketing teams, that maybe they think aren't performing. Even if the issue turns out to be somewhere else in the business. So yeah, that's brilliant. Thank you for all that information.

Nicky: No problem.

Samantha: And I always ask this at the end. Do you currently have anything to plug?

Nicky: No, not really. I don't think so. No.

Samantha: If you guys out there have an issue with marketing and you want someone to come in and have a look, I guess, Nicky Parker is your person.

Nicky: Thank you.

Samantha: Yeah, brilliant. Thank you very much, Nicky. I will also add your links and information when this gets published. And yeah, thank you for watching again, guys.

Nicky: Thank you very much. Bye.

If your marketing doesn't seem to be working for you, and you need Nicky to do a deep dive, call her on  01256 83 11 10, or email her at nicky@bangconsulting.co.uk

If you need any help with your marketing strategy, brand & messaging or you need a virtual marketing manager, call me on 07791 521439 or email me at samantha@labrakita.co.uk

Interviewer: Samantha Tonge, Managing Director, Labrakita Marketing