Interview with Rob Dando: Marketing for Engineering & Manufacturing

Why should you invest in your brand? How does brand awareness generate business for you? Read on to find out! And don’t miss Rob’s tips and tricks: the acid test, treat your brand as a person, “Alienate to Accelerate”, and many more.

Rob’s links:

Website
LinkedIn

Watch the video here or read the transcript below if you prefer.

 

 

 

Samantha Tonge: Hi! It’s Samantha Tonge, from Labrakita Marketing here again with another expert. Today I'm talking to Rob Dando from the agency, FINALLY, and we're talking about a sector that's often considered an unsexy area of marketing, but it is an area of marketing I love, engineering and manufacturing. So Rob, can you introduce yourself, please?

Rob Dando: Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me. So, yeah, I'm Rob Dando. I'm kind of co-founder at FINALLY. And as rightly said, we're a full-service marketing agency, that specialises in engineering and manufacturing. So you know, day to day we're working with all sorts of companies across that spectrum, helping them with everything from their websites, videos, to lead gen, and campaign works.

Samantha: Brilliant. Brilliant. Okay. And what I'd like to speak about... Well, there are a few things that I'd like to speak about in this sector, but let’s start with just a general question. What do you find are the specific issues faced in the engineering and manufacturing sector with marketing?

Rob: I think, although they probably don't see it themselves, but I think one of the major factors is just a lack of understanding and appreciation of how important marketing truly is. You know, these are the kind of people that won’t even bat an eyelid when spending a million pounds on a machine. But then you ask: "Well how much do you spend on marketing?" And they go: "Well, £10,000 a year." You're like: "Okay, well, that doesn't quite add up." I think it's a very traditional sector. So, you know, a lot of companies would have been used to having, say, direct sales reps and field sales reps travelling around the country, covering areas, going and visiting people in factories and having conversations, which admittedly, you know… Well, it has worked, clearly. And it is a great method, but the pandemic obviously has accelerated the need to digitise. And I think now, many of them are starting to come round to the understanding that actually, that isn't going to work anymore. People aren't necessarily in those factories, you know, they're working at home. And just generally that technology's kind of catching them up rapidly.

Samantha: Yeah, that sounds very familiar, certainly. For a long time... Yeah, I've been in that sector for longer than I'd like to think about. And I guess, part of our job is convincing... well, it's explaining just how important marketing is to the sector, and how it will make a huge difference to their bottom line.

Rob: Yeah, definitely. I think, you know. Generally though, what I have found is once there is an understanding or an appreciation for it, then they're kind of all in.  And that's great as well. You know, obviously, quite logical brains in many engineers, and a lot of senior people in these companies, who started life as engineers. And so they've got that appreciation, they understand research, they are able to appreciate things like development and testing, you know. And so when I start to get into those conversations, saying, you know: "We want to do this, and we want to test it, and we want to see what the data's saying" and that's kind of music to their ears.

Samantha: Yes, yeah, absolutely. I think that those of us in marketing that can go to these guys with facts and figures, to back up what we're saying, and showing that, you know, we're not a colouring-in department, we're not the brochure department, we make a genuine difference to your bottom line, I think they are very receptive to that. And there's a lot of research out there that just shows how big of a difference marketing and brand, in particular, makes.

Rob: Yeah. I think that is probably one of the hardest things to get across: brand, and brand awareness. It's a major thing that I talk about a lot when I give different talks. In fact, I was at an engineering design show last week, talking about how to generate leads online in 2022. And the first like 30 slides were about brand. Because having the right brand, and you know, a brand awareness is a huge part of that journey, but also an understanding that that is an investment, not a cost.

That's one of the hardest conversations I have. Like, people just see marketing as a cost on their bottom line. And that's just the wrong mindset. You know, of course, it's a cost, but I would proportion 50% perhaps as straight up write-off, as brand awareness is an investment into your own business, because you have to do that. And I regularly say: "Well, you know, there's this particular global restaurant. It's one of the most popular restaurants in the world. You got two golden arches, right?" We all know who that is. We are probably both sat in a room where we know that there's probably one, in fact, there's probably two within a mile of me right now, you know? But this is a company that everyone in the world knows, who's spent over a billion dollars a year on advertising. Why do they do that? Because it's about being right at, like front and centre at someone's decision making points.

You're driving along the motorway, and you're feeling a bit peckish. Then there's a sign that says Burger King next left. You think: "Oh, yeah, I'll go there. I'm hungry." If that sign says McDonald's, or you know, their ad saying, you know, McDonald's 250 yards next left, you think: "Oh, yeah, I'll go there." That is marketing. They have to be in your mindset when you're ready to make that decision. And obviously, as we both know, the B2B buying process is considerably longer.

But actually, you know, the stats are saying that over 70% of buyer's mind has been made up before they have that conversation, that initial reach out, you know? So they're doing that research. And if you're not there, if you're not front of mind, if you're not in the places that they're looking, they're reading, they're researching, your competitors will be.

Samantha: Absolutely, absolutely. And also, even if they haven't got to the point... I think that comes back to the signage when they're hungry. Even if they hadn't really thought about it, but they've got a traditional sales guy in front of them, if your brand is front and centre already before that sales guy is sitting there, they're going to have a much easier conversation.

Rob: 100%. I mean, this is part of my talk track, to be honest. I talk about the importance of building trust, you know, in a relationship where salespeople are building human relationships with people. Because we all buy from people, right?

We're now sat, you know, across the country, across the world even, behind screens. But that doesn't mean that we can't be human. I use video heavily. So, you know, the calls that we're having, but actually I send LinkedIn videos, I send personalised videos all the time, to make sure you're still having that human connection, because it's about building the trust. And all those touch points happen. And so, you know, I talk about that bit that: "Why do you, and why do we do this online? Why do we want to build a brand? Why do we want to build awareness?" Exactly for the reason, that you want to be invited to the party, you know. So if they're going to talk to three companies, you certainly want to be in that process. And that's about them understanding who you are. But actually, if you've been that brand that's leading the way, that's giving out educational content, that's putting on webinars, you're the party leader, you're all sitting around the table, and you're on the booster seat.

Samantha: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think, and if anyone's starting to get their heads around it, I think one story that always springs to mind for me, when we talk about brand awareness, is what Heinz did a few years ago. They were bought by a big investment firm, who obviously didn't really know what they were doing, because they went: "Everyone already knows who Heinz is. We don't need to advertise." They massively scaled back their advertising. Three years down the line, they've wiped 20% off the value of Heinz, because you do eventually forget. It does eventually go to the back of your mind, if it's not constantly coming up.

Rob: Yeah, I think there's a difference between… and people need to appreciate the difference between, you know, what marketing and advertising is. It's not the same. Marketing your business is, for me, the strategic thought process behind everything. Advertising is a method to deliver on your marketing.

Samantha: It's a tactic.

Rob: It's a tactic, yeah. But people kind of disassociate them and say: "Oh, we don't need to do marketing, we'll do a couple of ads." But without a strategy, that's exactly what would happen. You know, like, if you don't invest in it… Like, the biggest brands in the world spend billions and billions to continuously advertise and market, because they have to, because they understand exactly your point: You could disappear off the face of a cliff, you know. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall when the Nokia CEO got a tap on the shoulder to say: "Hey, you know, Apple have actually just like wiped the floor and gone past us now." Because they weren't ahead of the curve. They weren't thinking about it. They felt in a position of power that they didn't actually own. No one has. If you're not constantly looking at your customers, understanding what your customers want, delivering products and services that they need, and then marketing those products and services, you could disappear.

Samantha: Absolutely. And it's music to my ears, that you say, get the strategy right first, don't ignore the strategy, including what the brand actually is, because that's a 100% what I concentrate on with most of my clients: the strategy. And one thing that I sometimes find, although I don't know if you see this in the sector as well, is that a lot of businesses find it hard to articulate what their brand actually is.

Rob: 100%. So we did a study recently. So we work a lot with precision engineers, obviously in engineering. And I was like: "What is precision engineering?" Right? Because surely you're not going to advertise yourself as not precise, you know. So we did a little survey, we looked at 200 website homepages. And of those 200 pages, 88% of them said that they were precision engineers, or precision engineering appeared on the homepage. And we were like: "Okay, so you're all the same!"

You know, like, there's no point of differentiation. Engineering, particularly in aerospace and medical, is nano-precise. Like, we know that. It has to be. So that's not really the point. Like, you're not going to get the job if you're inaccurate, so you don't need to talk about that. We need to talk about like: "What are you doing to solve the customer's problem? Now, what is it you actually do?" And it might just be that your business, you know, really, really excels in creating parts for hip replacements. And yes, they're precise. Obviously. But what else? Is it, you know, the level of knowledge? Is it that you've got doctors and nurses in the team? That, you know, you are constantly advancing your technology, your thought processes? Because there's always something behind that layer that we need to uncover. I'm sure that you do this when you're working with clients. It's like, trying to help them break that down and go: "Yeah, okay. But why?" And that's what it comes down to, that word: "Why?" Push them: "Why? But why?" And then when they really think about it: "Okay, but why?" And you get them down, and down, and down until they kind of go: "Oh, yeah, I get it."

"Okay, cool. Let's talk about that. Let's not just say that we are precision engineers, or, you know, we do this", because that doesn't matter. Like, that's a given for me. It's like, the classic in any company. They say: "Oh, we've got a high level of customer service." Well, I hope so. Because I'm not going to work for a company that's got a poor one. And, you know: “Are you going to shout about that on your homepage?” "Yeah. Terrible customer service. Probably not gonna get back to you. We'll take your money though." I mean, that's not the catch points that's gonna get you over the line.

Samantha: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. I love that: the "Why? Why? Why?", because that's very much a conversation I often have with clients. And it starts with: “Do they really understand their customer, and the customer's needs and requirements?” Because sometimes it's bringing them back to that. And in this sector, I think more so than in other sectors, it's understanding that the person you're speaking to isn't necessarily the decision maker or the only decision maker. There are other decision makers and influences they need to think about as well, and their slightly different needs.

Rob: Yeah, but then you need to talk to them all at the right level. So when we run advertising campaigns on behalf of clients, that is exactly it. It's about really digging deep into these personas and understanding, what actually is the buying journey within that company. So you know, if it's for a tooling company... We've just done a product launch, with a large tooling company. We're launching a new product with them. And it was really kind of digging down to understand: “Okay, well, we understand that procurement or finance are probably going to sign the purchase off, but actually, the person that wants the tool is the engineer.”

So the biggest influence we need to have is on the engineers. We need the engineers knocking on the door of their bosses, and their line managers, going: "I want this tool, and here's the reasons why." And so we give them those reasons: that it's going to save them time, it's going to be less tool changes, it's going to work across materials, all the things that they're going: "Oh, that's going to help me do my job better." So we tell the engineer, and then later on, we have other pieces of information that then talks to the finance person. And it might be potentially, you know, sometimes you have to talk about costs: "Top line it might look like it's an expensive part, but actually have you considered this, this, this and this? And actually when you break that down, it's going to work out cheaper for you in the long run." So you've got to produce content that speaks to your different audiences at the right time. But it's also completely aligned as a single campaign, because you can't contradict yourselves.

You know, you can't tell the engineers one thing and the finance another thing and then they get into a heated argument in the... I don't know, canteen, you know, so... It's a tricky thing, but it comes back to that word that we've both said: the strategy. I think a lot of misunderstanding around marketing is that, like you said, we colour in things, we produce some fancy brochures, we can run some ads, but actually, you know, it's the thinking. And that's where 25 years’ experience comes in. It's about understanding what does and doesn't work and having tried things, tested things and be able to go: "Look, you know, this sounds like a good idea on paper, but actually, that doesn't add up, or the data tells me something different."

Because fundamentally, it's not a personal decision. You know, a lot of what we do, creatively, is obviously... It is opinionated. You know, I could design something that you think is amazing, but someone next to you thinks: "Well, I don't like it, because I'm not a massive fan of pink." And that's just a personal opinion. But what can't be detracted from is that if the strategy and the reasoning is correct, that can't be argued, because the data tells you that.

Samantha: Yes. Which brings me back to something else that often comes up in my conversations with clients and used to come up, back when I was client-side as well. Which is, I don't know if you come across this, but it is reminding clients: "You're not your customer." And just because you don't like it... Whether you like it or not is almost irrelevant."

What is important: "Is it going to connect with the customer?" And especially in this kind of sector as well, reminding them that: "Okay, your audience might be technical. But they still only have a small amount of time. You've got to grab their attention before they even want to look at the technical details." I guess that brings it back to customer journey again, and getting the right level of information, as well as the right message at each stage.

Rob: But also, I mean, and that's a great point about being technical, and it's one that, you know, I've mixed opinions on, because there's a time and a place to be technical, right? Yes, some of these people are highly, highly technical, but that's what they do all day long for their job. So that isn't necessarily what they want to be seeing in an advertising. Because that's still testing their brain, you know. What you actually want to do is attract them with something, because they're still humans.

Like, we got right back to what I said. We're humans, we're trying to build a relationship, and so is marketing. It's trying to build a relationship with a brand or a product. We all have such affinities, you know, Apple are one of the best in the world at that. Apple do not sell any of their products on features. They sell it on benefit.

You think about Steve Jobs, and I mean it's one of the most famous deliveries, in probably my lifetime. Because he walked on stage with that iPod, the very first iPod, and he didn't say: “Here is a 32 GB hard drive that can do X, X, and X.” He walked onto the stage; he held up this little thing that no one had ever seen before, and he just went: “Here's a thousand songs in your pocket.”

You know, and that's how to sort of do this. So that you're like: "Okay." And same with, you know, phones. When they first brought out the first waterproof phone, they didn't say: "It can be submerged to this, because it's got X, Y, Zed." You know, they just went: "Throw some water at it". So yes, there's a time to be technical, but that is in the consideration stage of anyone's journey. What you actually need to do is just talk to these people as humans. So when we're talking this particular product campaign, you know, we're basically just saying: "We're going to save you time."

Like, “Do you want to be said time saved?" "Yeah.” “You do. Okay, cool. Find out a little bit more." Then they'll go: "Okay, that's caught my interest, let's find out." Then we can get into technical, we're gonna save you time, because, you know, you don't know how to change the tool head X number of times, because it can do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they'll go: "Okay. That's brilliant. I'm now intrigued." And then they might want to go into further details, for the detail-oriented, technical person. "Okay, how does that work with this, and this and this?" And we can give them all that information. We don't need to give them that information at the top. And as you said, it's about remembering that this is for customers, not the people. And I think that the hardest thing is sometimes to take a step back.

I always ask them: "Go and visit your website homepage, load it up." And then ask: "If you showed that to your nan, or your granddad or whatever, could they tell you what you do?" And then they'll go: "No." And I'm like: "There you go." That's the acid test. My mum is my acid test for things. I go like: "Mum, did you understand that?" She'd go: "Oh, yeah, I do." And then I'm like: "Cool."

Samantha: Brilliant. That's a great idea. Because that's precisely where it falls down. And I think sometimes, they’ve made the decision before they’re even looking at the actual technical data. Although, I imagine no engineer would want to admit this. But I think, in reality, that happens quite often, because of our psychology. If anything, the data is reassurance they've made the right decision.

Rob: Yeah, but I think, we're kind of stereotyping a little bit. And I think that's what happens. We create these stereotypes, for example that all engineers are very technical people, and they need information. Well, if that was the case, like, how do they buy trainers? And how do they buy clothes? Because Nike's adverts aren't telling them, you know: “The sole is made of this rubber, which gives you this level of bounciness on your foot, etc.” They're just going like: "These are cool trainers, they'll look good on you. Do you want to buy a pair?"

Samantha: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And it's that understanding what that core benefit genuinely is. And I think sometimes they get that wrong, even if they're talking about the actual benefit: it saves time, it saves them energy. So, whatever it is.

Rob: But "saves time" is a broad benefit. And like, it was my example, I admit. But there's more behind this. I say to you: "Saves time means what?" You know, go back to the why. Now it's like: "Okay, saving time means what for that person? So does that allow them to, you know, develop more product? Does it allow them to create more product? Does it allow them to test things better? Does it...? What is the...?" Again the why and the what.

Samantha: And to relieve their stress. Talk about firefighting. You talked about timesaving and that is what made me think of it, because I remember one time that illustrates this well. I think, you know, sometimes the business leaders, the owners of the company, the managing directors, they think they know, and really understand the customer's needs, but they're not necessarily communicating with the guys on the ground, the customer service people, salespeople. And actually, one thing that always jumps to my mind with this one is that: I was client-side, and we were running a campaign for aggregates, or we were going to, and we had all this stuff from like an international level: "This is what we're talking about." It was all about efficiencies, and making sure the plant runs all the time. And yes, that’s important. But the reason it's important is because, actually, these guys are running around like headless chickens, and they don't have time. And the idea of having to put all this new stuff in, all this condition monitoring and better bearings, and this, that, and the other was just: "Oh, no, I haven't got time to think about it." So actually, what we needed to talk about is: "Are you wasting man hours?" Because that's something that made them sit up and go: "I really hope not!" And then they listened.

Rob: Yeah. It's just finding what works. And that, for me, that's the true sense of a marketer or strategist. Because you're trying to get to the heart of the problem, and then find a solution to solve it. And that problem solving is the key element. I mean, you know, little things. I walk around all day long, with certain things that just seem kind of: "I don't understand how it's got to, like, even delivery." I mean, a classic example. Actually, this is something I'm gonna have to try and share the word more, because it just seems illogical. Maybe it's just me, but say the self-checkouts, right? There's a Sainsbury's behind me. They've just put new self-checkouts in, and two of the terminals are card only. So you can't even put money in, they don't exist. You have to pay with a card. You go to checkout, you press checkout. And it says: “Have you got any bags?” “No.” And then it's the pay. And then it says: “Choose your method to pay”.

With a card only payment system. So, surely… I'm not saying that you can't pay with a gift card or you can't pay vouchers. You can. But why can't they default to card payment? Because that saves probably, I don't know, ten seconds, right? But actually, it's another press of the screen for me, that just annoys me. And it's 10 seconds, which if you took 10 seconds for every single transaction that happens just in that little store here, multiply that across the UK of all these checkouts, that's a lot of time that's been wasted, just simply for somebody to press that they're going to use a card machine to pay by card.

Samantha: Yeah, that's funny. I had the exact same experience yesterday. I thought exactly the same thing: "Why? But it's card only, why are you asking me if I want to pay by cash?"

Rob: Even if it was cash, like, even when they were cash, right? I could probably just.. But I was like: "Hang on. If the machine, like, this software is clever enough, it should default to card," because I would guess, I don't know, but I would guess that 85 to 90% of transactions is a card, right? So that's clearly the default, in my mind. And if you put some coins in a machine, then the software should be clever enough to go: "Oh, here's some coins. They're paying by cash."

Samantha: Yes. So if there's a point-of-sale software company out there, listening...

Rob: Please fix it. Like...

Samantha: ...here's the core benefit for the supermarket: get their customers through quick, and no abandoned carts just standing in the queue.

Rob: Also how does it get to that stage, which hasn't been user-tested? Or maybe I'm just a weird user, I don't know. But, you know, like, I can't imagine that. There must be a number of people that are thinking, like you, exactly that: "Hang on, I just want to pay by card, just default card." But again, you know, from a kind of customer point of view, as a kind of detracting from marketing side, but it's not, because it's about that brand, right? That annoys me. And that has a negative impact on my thinking of Sainsbury's, or other supermarkets that are doing the same thing. If one of them had, like, thought about the customer journey, and somebody actually monitored that time, and those transactions, and fixed it, that would be a powerful statement. And they would be able to market that, you know? Like, the fastest tills in the UK, or whatever it might be. And you'd be like: "Okay, cool. Yeah, I'm going there."

Samantha: Yes, yes, absolutely. And I think that sort of leads onto, that engineering and manufacturing people really understand what brand actually is. It's the core of what they do. And it's everything, including the product, the service, everything. Everything has to reflect that brand, which is why it's important not to confuse it with your vision, and what you'd like to be. It's what you are, and at every stage. And if you're not, if it breaks down anywhere, you've got a problem. And again, it has an impact on the bottom line.

Rob: Yeah. Well, I think, probably the biggest single confusion about the brand, is that people think a brand is an identity. They think it's a logo. And it's not. A brand is everything that we're talking about. It's about how you're made to feel when you're interacting with that company, when you're receiving products, you know, simple, little things. There are some brands that do great things like: I got a present for my child, whose birthday is today, actually. And, you know, it was from a little independent store, beautifully wrapped in tissue paper, nice little branded sticker that closed that tissue paper, and a handwritten note, just saying: "Thanks very much, your order is really appreciated", right? Now, that makes a huge difference to just a generic, chuck-it-out printed thing. That, for me, is going to be someone that I will now go and tell my friends about, and say: "You've got to go and look at this, it was a brilliant experience, you know, from start to finish, the transaction was easy," that type of thing. That's brands. And that's the power of brand. Like, I can recommend that brand happily, and do good. But just like I have done there, you know, sorry Sainsbury's I picked on you, but you can negatively impact brand, because we work on referrals, because it goes back to the same thing we talked about: We're humans. If I was coming up to, you know, where you lived, and I said: "Samantha, I'm in your area. I'm staying here. Can you recommend...?" Classic. "Can you recommend a good restaurant?" You will. You'll recommend me a couple that you've had a good experience with, good food, of course, etc. It's all part of the brand. And you might very well say: "I'd avoid that one."

It's the same thing. It's because we operate as humans. And marketing is exactly that. It's about, you know, delighting your customers, and following that customer journey all the way to the very end, because your customers should be your greatest referrers. And that's the easiest type of business to win, referred business. It's the most valuable and easiest business. It's the business that every company should be caring about the most.

Samantha: Yes. And another element of brand that I think is overlooked, and I think it's a huge issue with engineering and manufacturing, because of a recent experience I had. I don't know if you get involved with this side, but I was also at an engineering & manufacturing tradeshow last week in Scotland, and the thing that kept coming up again and again and again... You would think it was energy prices, considering what's going on. But it wasn't. It was staffing. It was getting and retaining staff. And I think employer brand needs to be part of the picture, too.

Rob: Definitely. I mean, it's not just affecting engineering and manufacturing, you know, it's across the country. Probably the hottest topic when I'm talking to any business leader is recruitment and exactly that. We're also trying to recruit and we're going through similar problems, and it makes you really take a look at everything. And again, your brand, and your employer brand: that matters. Again, in the talk that I gave, I said that it's a key element. It helps you to retain and gain employees because they want to work for a company that they're proud of. And that goes down to everything. Treat a brand like a human. That's what we do. You know, like: "How does your brand look?" That's your identity and brand assets. Wearing branded clothing, potentially, having, I don't know, branded cups or whatever it might be. That's all part of it. Take it down to whatever level... The wall behind and all of my window frames, they're all actually patented, like, the patent-matched colour. It's not black. It might look like it's black. It's not. I'm not the designer, but it's a slightly off-black. It looks black to me, but it's a special black. And that's the level of detail that we go to, because we're in this world, we're in this business, and the little things make the big difference. But when people come into our office, they do comment on that. They're like: "Oh, wow. Like, everything matches." And that's because it's important to build that brand. You know, when we're trying to employ people, we want to show them that it's a nice environment, we've got great clients, of course, we pay well, we look after our staff. But they need to see all of that. And a lot of engineering companies, they don't have any form of cultural aspects at all. They don't show it. They don't have a social media channel. They're afraid. They're afraid to admit that they're humans, that they go out, that they have fun together, that they can operate a machine and tell a joke, you know? They can laugh, they can cry. And it matters. But also, there's a massive preconception. And I don't know how we change this as a sector, but the younger generation, if you asked somebody, like: "What's engineering and manufacturing?" For some reason, they'll likely say: "Oh, that’s boiler suits. Dirty. Oil." I mean, honestly, some of the factories that I'm going into at the moment, you could eat your dinner off the floor.

These things, they're like operating theatres, you know. They're so clean. They're so high-tech. You've got robots, like, buzzing around, you've got automation, you've got, as we say, precision engineering to, like, the microscopic levels of accuracy. These are high-tech businesses. They're really exciting. And, you know, for anyone that's sort of at that younger age, thinking about that career move. And also, as we're both here, we're both marketers in this sector. Like, there's much more in this sector than just someone operating a tool.

Samantha: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I love that: "Treat your brand, like it's a person."

Because you do have that. People do have an emotional connection. Like, bringing it back to McDonald's, whether you like it or not, there's some form of emotional thought that goes through. And I think in engineering and manufacturing, sometimes they think it's not important, that emotions are irrelevant. It's all facts and figures, but it's not.

Rob: Emotions are what people buy on, right? We're humans. We're humans, we buy on emotion. I mean, a great example of that is if you just think about the way you speak. So, bring a brand back to human. You know: "What do you wear? Where do you hang out? What do you sound like, you know? How do you speak?" And it's okay to be anything. As long as you are what you are, and you build your brand, and stick to it. That's fine, right? You've got NatWest bank, and you've got Monzo. They're both banks. They're both very successful banks, but they got completely different customers. And that's okay.

NatWest will not speak the same way as Monzo, because they have very different customers. And very different customer wants. They're not interested in the customers of Monzo, particularly. You know? Same with British Airways and Virgin, they both fly a plane from London to America, but they do it in a very different way. The planes fly the same. Technology is the same. Most of our customers are a part of that process, getting those planes in the sky. But actually as a brand, you couldn't be any different. You've got the formal nature of language of, you know, the "best of British"-type British Airways, the, you know, "We're going to do this." And then you've got, like, the cool kids on the block, you know, rocking around. I mean, I just saw something where Virgin have just kind of lowered their dress codes again, I think, for their airline crew. They're not making them... Although, I haven't read it in full, but from what it looked like on a picture, they might be able to, like, wear trainers and stuff as part of it. And that's fine. But that's not British Airways. And British Airways probably won't do that. But that's okay, right? They're different brands to different audiences.

Samantha: 100%.

Rob: They know their market, you know. And when we do talks again, we talk about "Alienate to Accelerate". If you focus on the 5% of your market that you actually are going to deliver to, and literally forget and alienate the 95%, I promise you, you will grow far faster. Because if you know who you're talking to, you can concentrate on it, you can deliver your message to that person, because the reality is that the 95% people are never going to buy from you. So why are you trying to even appease them? Don't. Just alienate them. You know, Greggs alienates many people. They don't care, because they weren't gonna buy Greggs anyway. So you don't need to talk to them, you need to talk to the ones that matter, the ones that are gonna walk into your store, or pick up the phone and do business with you. They're gonna give you the money and generate business. Forget about the rest, because they're not your customers.

Samantha: I love that: "Alienate to Accelerate". And I think it comes back to the same thing that we keep circling back to. And I think this is the main message that I hope people are taking away from this one: Start with the strategy, understand who your customers are. And then it's segmenting. STP as we call it: segment, target, position.

You know, you'll have a general sector. But within that, there are segments. Who do you actually want to target? Who's the best fit for you? And then you can come up with a marketing strategy that works.

Rob: 100%. Yeah. Or call up a third party to get fresh eyes on it. That's it.

Samantha: Yeah. 100%. Yeah.

Rob: Sometimes everyone can get so enclosed in their own business, that they can't see the wood for the trees.

Samantha: Yeah. I think that's what it boils down to. Brilliant. Thank you for that. That was a great conversation. Thank you very much. And just before we go though, do you have anything to plug?

Rob: Do I have anything to plug? Actually, I don't really, no. Just, you know, if people want to find out a bit more, I mean, I love talking to people and helping, so feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. You know, we've got a podcast series that we run now, which is talking to marketers in engineering and manufacturing. So, if you are a marketer, and you want to catch those, then there's some really interesting conversations, people in your positions, and like the tricks of the trade, I guess, and what do people do? So yeah, feel free to check that out, it's on Spotify and Apple and all the usual places.

Samantha: Fantastic. Thank you for that. I will put those links on my webpage when I publish this video. So, if you're watching this, it's up there. Brilliant. Thank you so much.

Rob: No problem.

Samantha: And thank you everyone for watching.

Rob: Yeah, thank you very much. Take care.

Samantha: Bye.

Interviewer: Samantha Tonge, Managing Director, Labrakita Marketing