Interview with Will Greig – The Credibility of Marketing

Have you ever came across the common misconception that anyone can do marketing? Well, those who believe this give marketing a bad name, but Samantha and Will are here to clear the air. They discuss brand, salience, brand distinctiveness and why balancing short-term and long-term brand building are all important for your business’s success. In their chat, they highlight case studies to show you what you can expect from an academically qualified marketing professional. Watch the video below to find out more, or read the transcript if you prefer.

Links:

Will's LinkedIn Profile

 

Transcript:

Samantha Tonge: So, hello again, viewers. It's Labrakita Marketing. Samantha Tonge here with another one of my expert interviews. Today’s interviewee is Will Greg, and we're going to be talking about the credibility of marketing. So, Will, can you give us a bit of an introduction of who you are?

Will Greig: Yes. First of all, thank you very much for having me. Credibility of marketing. You have a big subject here. And I think it is also quite topical at the moment. Especially when you think about the current recession and the prevailing uncertainty. People will be probably asking: "What is the point of marketing?” And they will most likely talk about marketing carts and things. But yes, going back to my history, I spent 10-11 years in a large business-to-business, industrial organisation. Spent quite a lot of time in marketing departments there and realised how low marketing was on the priority list in those days. Even though that department in those days had some really good, quite visionary marketers there. They had marketing people that were really keen, and achieved an awful lot while working there, and while I was there. I learned a huge amount from them, too, which was great. And during my time, at the large industrial business, I went back to do a Business Administration Master's, which was great, but realised that the marketing function wasn't particularly well taught, I have to say. Then I moved away from big corporate into entrepreneurship and got stuck into food and beverage for a while, which was great. And I also fell into a trap there, as a founder I became convinced that my ideas were absolutely the way, without really doing things like diagnosis, or testing, or talking to customers to find out whether what we were doing was actually what they wanted. And then also, once we got established, going back to the customer and keep asking them to adapt. So that was certainly a good learning curve. I was in food and beverage for about... I think best part of 10 years. I sold out and I've been spending quite a lot of time helping businesses, especially small businesses, with growth and development ever since. And what we do is: we start by looking at strategy. It's one of the first things we do. And of course, the first thing we do with strategy is to find out what's going on with the company, with the product, with the customers, and with the competitors. So, we do lots of diagnosis. And that doesn't just start with external stuff, too. We look internally as well.

And then we put in place strategies to improve, to tighten up, that enables us to set proper objectives and position properly. Then, if there is a marketing budget we would set about the great task of tactics and implementing and achieving those things. So, you know, what we do at that stage is really split. The stages are very thorough with diagnosis, then we move on to strategy before we even think about tactical execution.

Samantha: Sounds familiar.

Will: That'll sound very familiar, yes! Because I was on the Mini MBA in Marketing and Brand Management with Mark Ritson. I did it during lockdown, because I thought it was probably a good idea to go back to some education and I had my eyes opened. You know, having been through various stages of Business Development and Business Studies teaching, Marketing was taught poorly until I got onto that course and have been fascinated with that process and how it can change the performance of brands. It's really powerful stuff. Definitely.

Samantha: Yeah. It really is. It really is. And I totally agree with starting with strategy. I think it sort of leads on to what we're talking about to a certain extent.

Because there are a lot of people out there who call themselves marketers, I think both client-side and even people like us, that are consultants who jump straight to tactics. Because they're not marketers. It is not a protected status. Anyone can call themselves a marketer.

And I guess the first thing we need to discuss is: How do people out there, who know they need help with marketing, whether it's a marketing department that just needs a bit of an outside view for help, or if it's, you know, a business owner who knows that they need that help, how do they then go about finding someone with the right qualifications and experience?

Will: Yeah, I think it’s a very good question. And I think it's tough, because there are so many people out there. And there'll be lots of people that are very good at what they do, of course. But there are loads of people out there, who are looking to work with small businesses and help with these issues of, you know, really becoming good marketing organisations. So, it's very difficult to find, isn't it? But I guess, what businesses should be doing is, first of all, know when they need help. Because the big question is: "Do they recognise that they need this stuff?" And it's very difficult. It depends on what stage they're at.

Samantha: Yes. That’s an important one.

Will: And of course, that's the first thing, isn't it? Because when you are a founder of a business, or when you are running a business, one of the first things you look at is: "Are we controlling cost?"

And: “Oh, actually, I think… ooh, there's a cost there that I think we could probably do without, so let's cut it”. And they go: "Oh, haven't I done a good job?" But what that cost-cutting is actually doing is stifling the business. In my view, it is stifling innovation, it's stifling creativity, it's making things tougher for your people, which is also potentially a difficulty. What I think you should be looking at is thinking about strategy. And of course, by that what we really mean is your marketing, your brand, what you’ve got. And I think once you've made the realisation that you could do with a bit of support on this, it could start as simply as having a discussion with someone to talk about their approach and then letting them loose, effectively, and getting them involved. But I think it's to go to your warm network, you know. I really believe in that. Organizations will have a great network, and it's simply lifting the phone, or sending out a few emails to ask, who is there in your network, who you know that gets this stuff. And then, of course, you check them out on LinkedIn and see what they have done. And of course, you will see a CMO job title perhaps, or Head of Marketing or Senior Marketing Executive, or similar. Keep scrolling down on that LinkedIn, go to their education to see if they have a formal qualification in marketing. And if they do, then I think there's a fair chance that that person is absolutely worth talking to. And after that it just comes down to chemistry, doesn't it?  I think chemistry is also a very important part of that.

Samantha: Very.

Will: So yes, I think initially it’s going to your warm network, without wanting to go through very expensive searches, because, of course, there are other ways too, but you know, not everyone wants that. And then, there are great networking organisations that, within their network, can recommend good people. And there are organisations that do this very well. There's an organisation called The Portfolio Collective which is like this. It is basically a network group that has a really nice community of, as they call them, portfolio professionals. And there will be lots of marketing consultants within that, that will have some great experience. And going to those people and tapping into that network and other networks is a great way to do it. I think you can certainly find a good person with some initial searching, without spending very much money at all.

Samantha: I guess it's then asking the right questions, isn't it? Like if you ask: "What's your approach? What would you do to help me?" If they say: "Right, I'm going to do these Facebook posts. I'm going to do..." If they launch straight into that: Steer clear!

Will: Yes, quite. Yes.

Samantha: If they need to know about the business before they even start talking about tactics, that's a good start.

Will: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because otherwise what happens with marketing and marketing departments is that they get siloed away, into a little broom cupboard until someone says: "Oh, do you know what? I think it's time we send out a newsletter." I worked with a client, and I really enjoyed that placement, because they had a fantastic team at this business. And one of the first things that I arrived to, when I got to their office was a great big stack of postcards in envelopes ready to be sent out. And having asked what these were, I was told that: "Oh, this was a direct mail-out that we're meant to be sending. I have no idea why it's going out." And this was an idea of one of the board of directors that said: "Oh, don't you think we ought to send out a postcard to our customers?" The guy was going: "I don't really know why we're sending this stuff." And of course, he was absolutely right. Because it's about the why. You've got to know: “Why? What was this doing? What problem was it solving? What objective was it trying to hit?” And of course, to get those answers, you need to do the diagnosis and the strategy beforehand.

You know, this was a classic arse about face. And therefore, I'm afraid, a complete waste of money. So, you know, that's a classic situation that I see, and that I'm sure businesses are seeing time and time again. And it is amazing, isn't it?

Samantha: Yes. I had a very similar situation. I won't say which company. One day we got delivered this huge pile of brochures, which we, in the marketing department, weren't expecting at all. It was brochures aimed at education, which was not one of our identified target markets.

And it was full of spelling errors as well, just to make it even worse. And we were like: "Where has it come from?” And it had come from a senior director who'd done it on a whim. And we were then told that it was coming out of our budget.

Will: Yes, so not unusual, is it? And the thing is, marketing is too often seen as something that, you know, carries very little weight and importance, and something that anyone can do.

Samantha: And I think that's the crux of the matter. It comes back to this credibility of marketing, because it doesn't have that credibility, it should. Partly because there are all these people out there who call themselves marketers, even though they are not.

And because of that, there's this attitude in businesses that: "Well, it's not a skill. Anyone could do marketing. I can do marketing. Oh, I just want to do this thing on a whim without thinking it through."

Because that's interesting and unimportant, especially if they've got a marketing department. And I think... I don't know if you find this, but particularly in my sector, client-side, they tend to employ junior people and then don’t invest in their education. Although that might be because of their budget, to be fair. But they end up needing that external help, really, to make sure it’s strategy first.

Will: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I mean, I had the classic situation at this large, multinational, B2B organisation. They were very impressive, I have to say. They were brilliant manufacturers. They had some fantastic operators, and were sort of almost scientists in their field. They were big paper makers. And what they'd achieved, a lot of it in the UK, was very impressive in terms of manufacturing capability. But one of the things they fell short of was putting any emphasis on marketing. And their marketing became... It wasn't a department that was put on the same sort of pedestal as something like, you know, financial control or operations. It was thought of as a support function only, right?

Classic situation. And we would sit there providing information for executives to go to meetings and goffer, basically. So, we would import data, some competitive activity, perhaps. And then there will be capital projects that we would provide scenario plans for and write reports on. The guy that was running it at the time was passionate about marketing, which is brilliant, but he then took it upon himself to write some strategic documents for the business that were then censored. So, I mean, it was a classic situation in a B2B organisation of using marketing as a support function. And therefore, you're right: "Why would people invest in skills?" You know, I remember, there were a load of very, very highly paid consultants running around the organisation at the time. And I always remember being on the phone to one of them, and him describing the department as the Department for Lost Souls. There you are. It sums it up. I mean, it's just brilliant, you know. And that's the sort of writing on the wall, you know, in terms of the future of the business, in terms of margins and brand and everything. So really interesting stuff. But, yeah, not in the least bit surprised. But we should also lay some of the blame on the laps of marketing itself because you're right, you know, people are getting very big jobs in marketing without any qualification at all, so we understand. And because marketers and marketing departments are very quick to become this support office doing tactical things only, without any strategy or planning. It is actually, therefore, not surprising that the marketing department isn't very effective. And so it sort of becomes a vicious circle I'm afraid, isn't it?

You know, you have a marketing department that's not really doing a great job, because you have the people in there, who, even if they have the skills, aren't able to voice it at board level to get the proper budgets they need to support the objectives.

Samantha: Yes. And they are often not in a position to do what they wanted. So yeah. I've seen it multiple times. I think this is an interesting stat, which I think is related. I don't know if it's still the case, but last time I looked at it, a study showed that around 70% of marketers are women, for whatever reason. And 70% of marketing directors are men. And I've seen it time and time again, that the newly positioned Marketing Director with business background, blah, blah, “He'd been great”, etc. He used to be Head of Sales, or he was the best salesman. It's not the same thing. Sales think differently. And it's quite right, because that's their discipline, they think more about the short term over the long term. Whereas we, as marketers need to think about both.

Will: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Samantha: And they don't know and don't understand strategy. And again, they come in, thinking: "It's easy". Anyone can do it...

Will: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. You know, when you talk about a sales department, and yes, of course, a sales department is a function of marketing. I had another, very interesting discussion with a guy who was Head of Marketing for this big organisation. I said: "Okay, so..." You know, I was just wanting to ask a slightly controversial question. I'm saying: "So what sort of relationship do you have with the sales team?". And the answer was: "Oh, they're in a different department." And I'm going: "No, they're not. They are very much a function of marketing, because you have a sales team to operate at the bottom of the sales funnel, don't you? And what's come before that is, you know, the joint marketing effort, of course together with the sales team, to get to the point where there's been lots of awareness building, you know, moving customers from consideration to, you know, towards the bottom of the funnel, where you've got the sales team who are nudging and closing sales, which is what they do, isn't it?" And marketing departments are there to support everything those guys do: knowledge, material, you know, if it's B2B, giving these guys the time to develop relationships, etc.

Samantha: To find out what they know as well.

Will: Absolutely. And tapping these guys. And these are the best guys to come back with this lovely qualitative information that marketing will then need to track how their brand is doing. And of course brand tracking, brand management, brand planning is so important wherever you go, you know. And I would argue, particularly in organisations that are B2B, that is so often shoved aside. Because I think, just talking about the sales team now, and how important those guys are, it's those guys that are sort of uncovering things that you would never know people think about your brand. And so, therefore, it's the gathering of that information that allows marketing teams, including the sales team, and in fact, includes everyone within an organisation. Let's face it, everyone is doing marketing within an organisation every day of their life, or they should be, you know. But that then gives the chance of finding, or thinking about an angle for a product or a service that they hadn't thought about before, you know? And this goes back to the arguments that the great Rory Sutherland comes out with, and that is that psychology and human behaviour, which means that marketing is not necessarily a science. In fact, he would say it's not a science, because it is psychology and human behaviour, where you cannot say anything is right or wrong. And of course, that's what's so important. And in order to sort of harvest that, you need this constant flow of information, don't you? So that means everyone has got to be involved in this and everyone's got to be part of marketing. It’s not a siloed department, is it?

Samantha: Yeah. Or at least it shouldn't be.

Will: Well, no, quite. And when organisations realise this, it is at that point that they can really see the power of things, like brand, you know.

And then, when you… Of course, I'm sure I'm going off on a real tangent here. But when you start to talk about brand, you've then got this wonderful thing called differentiation. And of course differentiation is a bit controversial at the moment, because there are lots of people saying differentiation is nonsense. But at a brand level, I think there is differentiation, you know. And when you have differentiation at brand level, the value of a brand increases. And this can happen in any context, in my view. And this is why it's so important.

Samantha: I think we can demonstrate it quite easily, that that's nonsense. Why does Apple do so well, if there's no differentiation?

There are other people that do exactly the same products as them. One thing I like to bring up is: Microsoft came out with a tablet a good 10-15 years before Apple did. But it flopped. Why? Apple's better at brand.

And I think another thing to help people understand why marketing shouldn't be a silo, why it should be integral to everything is to explain what brand actually is. I think people often misunderstand what brand is. It's obviously the colours, it's the font. And I've probably brought this up in later videos, but it's a really important point.

The brand, your brand is the core of what you are as a business and what you represent to your customers.

Will: Absolutely. Bezos said: "It's what people say about you, when you're not in the room," isn't it? Which is great. You know, I'm not quite sure there's anyone that does marketing better than him. And what Bezos says about brand is spot on, isn't it?

Samantha: It is. It is. And you need to be able to articulate what the brand is. And everyone in the business needs to be able to do that as well, even if it's not the exact words of your brand proposition. As long as it's along those lines, and they understand where they fit in that.

And there's been plenty of research on this that shows that organisations that are genuinely brand-focused, have double the profit margins of those in the same industry. So it's a no-brainer.

Will: Yeah, and of course, all the other lovely things that go with it. I mean, of course, profit is very important because that's what business is, you know, so often in business for.

We've got to make profit, you know, which is important. But all the other wonderful things that go with a strong brand, for example that teams within the organisation feel that they belong.

They feel that there is a purpose. And of course, purpose is a dangerous one, because there's a lot of nonsense spoken about purpose and brands positioning on purpose, but it's nonsense. But it's because they don't believe it, you know? They just think they tick a box. But I think where purpose can work really well is internally. And Simon Sinek talks a lot about this, isn't he? It helps to make sure that teams are aligned, because there is this sort of wider purpose, that is very motivating, rather than just going to work.

And a brand can really help that. And, of course, what that means is, that you've got more motivated people, and you've always got people that want to work there. So you've got the pick of a very, very considerable talent pool. And Apple is a classic situation. I mean, we always use Apple, but even smaller brands are very good at this. Because my background is restaurants, and I spend a bit of time in restaurants, so let me bring an example from that sector. There is a massive issue, as we all know, because of this lovely Brexit thing. But I don't want to get political on your interviews. So, anyway. It's a real challenge for restaurants at the moment to recruit and retain good people in London, and probably everywhere, actually. And so a lot of restaurants are really struggling with that and so many other things. But when you look at the really established brands that genuinely care for their people, and that is part of what their brand is all about, the picture is different. I was talking to a guy, a really, really impressive guy that is a chairman of a business called Brasserie Bar Co. And they're a very successful organisations of pubs and sort of brasseries, that has a very clear position in the market, and it's very good at communicating it as well. And as a result, what they need: produce this consistently good food, give great service in pubs and restaurants. And as a result, what they do is they place an awful lot of emphasis, and they invest an awful lot of money in their people, genuinely, at every single level. And this is the classic case of a business doing marketing properly, it becoming a brand, becoming part of the fabric of the business.

And so: "Are they looking for people?" I mean: "No, they're not.” They have fantastic people within the business, and they retain them. And as a result, they do extremely well. So, you know, so often, with restaurants it's very short-term thinking when it comes to marketing and brand strategy. But the ones that get it right: Goodness me, do they reap the rewards?! Another example: the River Cafe. I don't know if you've ever heard of or had the pleasure of going to the River Cafe.

Samantha: My grandmother used to live in Axminster. So...

Will: Yeah, you know. It's an amazing place that has an incredible brand, because it's been going for so long, and it delivers constantly on its brand. And it is amazing. And there are two stories here. Sorry. Again, stop me if I'm really rabbiting on. But there are two stories here. A) They constantly have a pool of amazing chefs and people wanting to work there, because they have this fantastic ethos in the kitchen of learning and support, or not overworking their people, and, you know, constantly learning about new twists on Italian cuisine, the best cuisine in the world in my view. But not only that, when you look at their menu, it's eye wateringly expensive, unfortunately. But it's eye wateringly expensive, because they've been very successful in delivering to their target market, who'll happily pay that, because they know they're going to get an amazing experience every time. This is good marketing and good brand management, you know. And it works for the product. It works for how they price it and it also works internally, supporting their people having this fantastic ethos, which of course translates into an amazing customer experience.

Samantha: Another good case study.

Will: Yeah. Do you know what? I can reel off so many of them. They're so impressive.

Samantha: I think I was thinking of the wrong one. I was thinking of Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's.

Will: Oh yeah. the River Cottage that was.

Samantha: Cottage. Yeah. Not Cafe.

Will: The River Café, yeah, is not quite in Axminster. It's near Hammersmith Bridge, actually. But if you ever get a chance to visit, absolutely do it. You might need to save up for a while, though. But let me tell you it is so worth it.

And then the other, of course... There was a real Twitter-storm against poor old Tom Kerridge because he was charging £90 or something for a steak and chips. And everyone was going: "That's ridiculous." And he was going: "Well, actually, you know, what I want to do is pay my people properly, buy really good, well-sourced meat that I know has good heritage. And because of what I do, as in, the service I offer, I'm targeting that at people that'll gladly pay it. And I'm busy. In fact, I'm fully booked.” So for me, that's good marketing.

Samantha: Exactly. If he was struggling to fill tables, that would be one thing, but he's not.

Will: Absolutely.

Samantha: It's like: people keep complaining about Disneyland, or Disney World. I can't remember which is which now. Anyway, the big one in Florida. They keep putting their prices up. But they're always overbooked and are always turning people away.

Will: Wow.

Samantha: Well, of course they’ll keep putting their prices up.

Will: Yeah. Yeah, well, it comes down to supply and demand. I mean, you know, there is always the question of… you know, again, making sure you're talking to customers, listening to customers at that point. But, you know, ultimately: What is loyalty? I mean, Byron Sharp says there's no such thing as loyalty. But I suppose what you will want is, if people are paying what they feel are inflated prices, but want the experience of Disneyland, and then come away with saying: "Well, it's actually not great value for money, and I feel I was ripped off."

Samantha: I think that's one thing that... part of the reason they're fully booked is, the same people go multiple times a year.

Will: Interesting.

Samantha: And if that's happening, then they know they're getting the experience right. Disney isn’t really my thing. But I think, Disney, from what I understand, understands the target market, which is not me and they understand how to make that experience.

And I think this is one thing that's missed as well. I think a lot of people think marketing is at the beginning, then there's sales, then there's delivery. When marketing should be actually across the board,]. Not just in terms of... We've spoken a bit about keeping your employees engaged, and onboard, and excited, and retaining them through multiple ways. But being excited about the brand, the same is the case for customers, because you want... I mean, look, if you think about the customer journey, marketing and marketing communications, which I think a lot of people think of as marketing. It's a bit more than that.

Will: Yeah. It's tactics.

Samantha: With marketing communications, you need to think about after the sale as well, because you want them to come back. Even if it's the sort of big purchase, that isn't going to be a repeat purchase, you want them to tell everyone else about you.

Will: Absolutely. And of course, that comes right at the bottom of the funnel. And it's one of the things that you should be probably setting objectives on.

You know, you want advocacy, don't you? And the great measure of advocacy is the Net Promoter Score. And it's just sending out that fantastic one question. That is, you know, to what extent would you recommend our service between 1 and 10. Grade it. It’s one of the most powerful questions you can ask, and it is amazing that so many businesses don't ask that stuff. Because that's your advocacy. And what we found, just as a little case study, with a business that I worked with, they were doing this very effective direct mail. I ended up working with them for about four years. Fantastic team of people, that all got it, in the end. And together we sort of created this marketing plan and this position in the market which was, you know, fantastic, and everyone absolutely aligned behind it, which is great. And one of the things that came out of it was that customers and clients loved the fact that you could deliver equipment to them ecologically, in other words on a cargo bike, that was something that really helped with this company’s brand’s distinctiveness. One of the other things we discovered, because we used a lot of freelancers to support service, and one of the things, we knew that advocacy and recommendation was a big part of the service, so we decided that these freelancers should be treated as if they were customers. And these freelancers were always paid early, which is unusual. They had equipment that was extremely well-serviced. Vans, in which would they deliver the equipment, were clean and tidy. And they became part of our community. So it meant that these guys became salesmen for us on set. And that was hugely powerful. But in order to deliver that, everyone had to align behind the promises that we were giving as a brand. And that became very powerful, I have to say.

Samantha: Yes, yes. I guess that's another question you need to ask, if you're talking to marketers and want to hire someone. Do they understand what distinctiveness is? Do they understand what brand is? Do they understand what...? Do they understand about, you know, targeting, things about segmenting the market, and how you need to understand that market, and speak their language?

Will: Salience of course is another one. Yeah, absolutely. And of course, this stuff takes time. This is all part of the diagnosis, isn't it? And the business that I worked with… I mean, I spent four years with them, when I was meant to be there six months. But in the end, it was four years, because, you know, luckily, the management team saw that there was this great potential for this company and the brand. And so what we did was, we spent a good six months diagnosing, which then meant that we understood the market and the targets that we wanted to go for. And so we knew what and how to position ourselves, because we knew a lot of the pain points of these customers and a lot of the needs that they had, and, you know, you align those to the skills and the expertise within the organisation.

And you compare it to what the competitors are offering, position on that, often against a competitor, which can be a very powerful way of positioning. And because of that very clear positioning, these guys were seen to be doing certain jobs very well. And people would come to us. So they would, you know, have a photographic shoot coming up and these guys were lighting experts in the photographic and sort of content production world. And so a producer would get the brief and go: "Oh, my God, this looks complicated." Immediately, they think of this company. And because it was on their mind at the point of purchase, you know, we became top of mind, that salience I mentioned. And that's so important. And with that, you know, coming back to what you were saying about brand. It's not about logos and colours and stuff. Well, it can be, because it's very important to have your codes correct, isn't it?

Samantha: Yeah. Just to be clear, I wasn't saying none of that is unimportant.

Will: No. No, of course, I know. I know you weren't, but...

Samantha: ...but they are not the definition of brand, but they are all that feeds into it. That's how you represent your brand.

Will: Absolutely.

Samantha: And it's so important. You mentioned distinctiveness. Distinctiveness is so important. So, so important. There's a reason all these big, huge, multinational B2C companies that are successful, do that. Because you need to stand out, you need to be remembered. And you need to be top of mind which is something you mentioned. And they each stand out against the competition in distinction.

Will: Yeah, absolutely. And staying top of mind. And of course, when it comes to codes and logos and things like that, that's also very important. And you throw it on everything. You do absolutely everything with it in terms of codifying stuff, so that it stays top of mind. And in the sort of narrow B2B segment that we were in, there was certainly an opportunity for us to do that because there were quite a lot of bland logos out there. And these guys were a lovely sort of bright orange colour. And as soon as you saw one of the vans with a bright orange colour arrive on set, everyone would go: "Oh, great. We've got these guys here, we know we're sorted." Fantastic, you know. So you slap it on everything. And of course, the great brands that do all these things well, they slap it on everywhere, at every possible opportunity, because this all helps with, you know, mental memory. As Byron Sharp would call it, sorry, you know, these guys are the sort of marketing academics. He calls it mental availability, which of course, is really, really important, isn't it, in brands?

And of course, for consumer products, when you combine that with physical availability, you know, it's great. And I always use that. Fantastic. When you're on the subject of things like salience is whenever you're on holiday somewhere, you could be somewhere quite obscure. It's hot. You sit down for lunch, and the first thing you ask for is: "Can I have a Coke, please?" You've not even seen a menu, you know. You've not even really thought very much about what's going on. But what you know, is that you're hot and you're thirsty and you want something sweet. And so that's what you say: "I'll have a Coke." And sure enough, a Coke appears. So there's mental and physical availability. And that's the power of that. I mean, that doesn't always work with B2B brands of course, but it could, you know? And there is the possibility of doing that within the slightly narrower sphere of a B2B market. So yeah, very powerful. And of course, the difference between distinctiveness and differentiation is an interesting topic as well. Sometimes I find myself losing people at that point, but it's an interesting discussion, nonetheless.

Samantha: One thing I think you've touched on there briefly is emotion, which a lot of marketers don't really understand. Well, in B2C, I think most of them understand. But in B2B, I think a lot of marketers don't understand, or at least their bosses don't understand, and don't like, is the part that emotion plays. Like if you're talking to a marketer, and they’re all about the facts, they’re throwing the facts at the customers. They're not personal or invested.

It doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't matter how technical the person you're speaking to is, emotion plays a part, even if it's just: "I know these guys know what they're doing, and I'm relieved, they're here." Like you say, it's that orange van turning up, sparks an emotion in them because the groundwork had been done, both in the product and the service and everything else.

Will: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's so important. It's also important in B2B, because, again, when you look at what the great Rory Sutherland talks about on the psychology of buying in a B2B environment, you know, it is very different. Buyers in a B2B environment are under an awful lot of pressure to make sure that whatever they buy is correct, because it has huge implications, potentially on the entire organisation if you get it wrong. And also for the individual.

Samantha: Their job could be on the line.

Will: Well, yeah, quite, for the individual that’s cocked it up. They could lose their job. So that whole process of buying in a B2B environment is very important. And that, yes, does involve emotion. But also what these guys have got to be convinced of is that whoever's providing the service of a product have got their back, you know.

And that they are going to deliver. And, yes, when you talk about emotion, what you're talking about, of course, is the brand-building side of things. And it applies to B2B as well as B2C, in my view. And big or small organisation. I worked in a small B2B company where emotion was a big part of it, because we've positioned on knowledge, we've got your back, and the fact that we're nice people to work with. These three very simple positioning statements actually really resonated with customers. And this was very B2B and quite specialised, you know. But I think it's really important for brands in both consumer and business buying that emotion does play an important part. And, of course, because it is all about building brand, I'm afraid it is a long-term investment that you make in a brand over a period of time, you know.

And, you know, salience, values, and it also helps to build and help to develop your top-of-funnel awareness, too. And that's definitely one of the things we discovered by giving some emotion to the brand and that was: "Ah, they're here. It's okay. They have our backs." You know, that got out there. You know, that got people talking, and so that helped to expand awareness for us and brought new people into the market. We targeted a very specific segment. In London there are the loads of fantastic creative content agencies, quite small, doing some amazing work. So these guys were fantastic creatively. Brilliant photographers, cinematographers, doing sort of short form, but not necessarily that good with lighting. So what they needed some support with was the logistics of lighting. How do you light something, if you're trying to film something in a forest, etc. And they'd go: 'Oh my God," you know, "If you've got big lights, how do we power those?” “Come and see these guys, they'll sort it for you." And that was a huge weight off a producer's mind that they had that. And, of course, that became a big part of the brand. And of course, those feelings are emotional. But that takes time. And the problem is, what marketers get seduced into is that anything we spend, whether it's time or money or both, on developing a brand, we want a return on it. Well, if you're doing the emotional brand-building stuff, your return won't be immediate.

Samantha: Exactly.

Will: So often, what happens is, that gets cut. So what you have to do is be bold enough to realise that brand building will take time and you won't necessarily see a specific return on it. But if you then combine that with your short-term: engaging with your sales team to convert those sales, then obviously, if you do both of those things, then you become so much more of an effective marketer.

Yeah, and of course, in this... Sorry, I'm really rabbiting on, but in the digital world where it is all about ROI, and performance marketing, people will find that they will come unstuck eventually because the cost of acquisition will go up if they're only concentrating on activation marketing. So and that's another thing that they need to look at.

Samantha: Yes, I mean, again, there's been quite a lot of research on this.

You need to think about the short term. I think we have touched on this a little bit: you need to touch on the short term and the long term. If you're talking to a marketer to come in and help you and they say: "Ah, I guarantee a certain number of leads in six months." And then they talk about... First of all: nobody can guarantee leads, or certainly not good quality leads. You can make them more likely, and you can have certain targets that you're working towards.

But you need to make sure that you have the long-term objectives as well as the short-term objectives. In B2B, your resources should be 50%-50% split, that seems to be the best from research, in terms of...

Will: Yeah. Depends on the segment, but it's roughly that, isn't it?

Samantha: It's roughly that in B2B.

Will: I mean, in Consumers it might be 60%-40% on a brand building, depending on what your budgets are, you know.

Samantha: Yeah. In B2C even more skewed towards the long-term brand building. Yes.

Will: Yeah, absolutely. Because that's where the money goes. And if they're doing TV, which of course, TV isn't dead, contrary to the belief of lots of people, but if they're putting it in TV, there's obviously going to be big budgets involved. So yeah.

Samantha: Yeah, yeah. But you can still do that, even if you don't have the budget of Cadbury.

Will: I know. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Samantha: You should still be thinking about long-term brand building,

Will: Completely agree.

Samantha: You should still be thinking about how you get in front of that target audience, get remembered by that target audience for what you are, and what your brand, you know, your core brand actually is.

Will: Absolutely. And I mean, there's always a dilemma with really small businesses, and with businesses that are starting out. It is all about activation, isn't it? They got to create some revenue. So that's really important. But you must keep in mind managing a brand, which will be very young, of course. But, you know, I think you do aligning the values and aligning the sort of thoughts of the management team into understanding that your brand could become your most valuable asset and managing it from day one is going to be very important. And of course, as we all know, if you're delivering short term, in other words, converting sales, that then can help you drive your long-term, because you can invest in it, can't you? But so yeah. It all depends where you are. And of course, when you're starting out it's all about sales. But yes, keeping brand in mind is very important.

Samantha: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah. Do you think there's anything the likes of you and I should do, other than videos like this, to kind of promote the credibility of marketing, how important it is? Wouldn't it be easier if people actually knew what they're talking about?

Will: Yeah. Look, I think it's tough, isn't it? Because we all know businesses are under the cosh, aren't they? When you look at what's going on economically; economic forecasts aren't looking great, are they? So, you know, people, businesses want to survive. I've had discussions with companies that are doing great things, but they say: "Look, I'm sorry, you know, we would love more external support. And we'd love the fact that someone's coming in with some independent thoughts and being quite creative and a little bit out there on things." But, you know, what they're thinking about is survival. Which you can completely understand. So I think, what we can keep doing is talking like this, because this is great brand-building for you, isn't it?

Samantha: Yeah. True.

Will: You know, you're talking some great stuff.

Samantha: And hopefully for you, too.

Will: Yeah. Well, yes, absolutely, completely. You know, you're talking to some really interesting people about these things. I think doing this is very important. But I think, you know, what we've got to keep doing is talking to potential clients, and keep doing the research: "What are people saying about marketing?" You know, "why is it that they've got a bit of a mental block?" And listen to them, because of course, you know, us as people that talk about the importance of marketing, we've got to be marketers for our own businesses too.

And that is having the ability, as Mark Ritson says, to flip it around and see it from the customer's perspective, because they're under an awful lot of pressure at the moment. So, and I suppose the best thing to do is to make sure that when you're talking to customers you are very structured in what you can offer, and really offer a solution and a plan early on. So I was talking to a very, very switched-on guy the other day and he was talking about "Be clear on your playbook." And for me that starts with diagnosis, in other words, give me some time to get under the skin, to find out what's going on with your brand. And then together we work it out, you know. And it has to be a together thing, doesn't it? So I think it's evangelising about that. And then hopefully, people will see that marketing is quite an important profession after all.

Samantha: Brilliant. I think that's a perfect note to end on.

Will: Yeah, good. Oh, I've loved this. That's flown by. How long have we been talking? Quite a while. I've been rabbiting on for ages. But...

Samantha: It was all engaging, interesting stuff.

Will: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's important to keep, you know, getting this message out there, and giving case studies as to where it works. Another great marketing organisation of course is KFC, McDonald's as well. They're brilliant at it, because they do not stop listening to customers, you know, and that's what it's all about. It's where it has to start, right?

Samantha: Absolutely. A hundred percent. Hundred percent. Brilliant. Well, thank you so much.

Will: Pleasure.

Samantha: Before we go, is there anything that you would like to plug today?

Will: Hahaha. Well, that's a good question. Nothing specific, apart from the fact that I would plug: Look, if someone talks to you and says: "Look, shall we talk about brand? Shall we talk about marketing?" Just give them half an hour, and then see what you think. I think it's definitely worth it, even if it's just a little bit of an audit, because you will find out things from your customers that you would never have expected.

Samantha: Yes, brilliant, brilliant. I'll just briefly mention that I always start with something called SOSTAC.

Will: Okay.

Samantha: One of the models for putting a marketing plan together. And S, the first one stands for situation, understand your situation. This includes your customers, your competitors, and you.

Will: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's all about that exactly, the three C's as Whitten and others would say: "customers, competitive, company". Absolutely.

Samantha: Brilliant. Thank you so much.

Will: Pleasure. And very, very nice to talk to you again. And let's do it again sometime.

Samantha: Absolutely. And thank you everyone for watching.

Will: Bye bye.
 

If you need help with your B2B marketing strategy contact Will at will.greig@icloud.com or me on 07791 521439 or email me at samantha@labrakita.co.uk

Interviewer: Samantha Tonge, Managing Director, Labrakita Marketing